(01/13 12:00:10)  Butch: Well, my clock says noon, so I'll get started.
(01/13 12:00:17)  Dr. August: I don't support carjacking vehicles. But if you think about it, hotwiring can be a useful or lifesaving skill.
(01/13 12:00:19) amonre claps his hands
(01/13 12:00:25) Kiteerah claps her hands
(01/13 12:00:30) Skellington98 claps his hands
(01/13 12:00:34)  Butch: I would like to thank everyone for coming to this informal gathering
(01/13 12:00:39) Vortmax cheers
(01/13 12:00:40)  Thend: So you've mentioned Doctor  lol
(01/13 12:00:45) Dr. August claps his hands
(01/13 12:00:47) Thend claps his hands
(01/13 12:00:49) Relentless claps his hands
(01/13 12:00:54)  Butch: So everyone knows, I am running a chatlog, and plan to post it after we are done.
(01/13 12:00:54) Nis'ah claps her hands
(01/13 12:01:17)  ireenquench: great, I looove logs  *cough*
(01/13 12:01:23)  Thend: lol
(01/13 12:01:46)  Butch: This meeting came out of a post I made on DRCsite
(01/13 12:02:05)  Butch: So, let's start with the introductions.
(01/13 12:02:12)  Butch: Try to follow my lead.
(01/13 12:02:31)  Butch: I'm Butch, I started just after UU opened and I am not affiliated with any group in the cavern
(01/13 12:02:39)  Butch: Kiteerah, please
(01/13 12:02:57)  Kiteerah: I'm Kiteerah I started during Prologue and I am not affiliated with any group
(01/13 12:02:59)  Butch: Go next. I"m just going to walk down my age list and ask eveyone to introduce
(01/13 12:03:04)  Butch: Dr. August
(01/13 12:03:26)  Dr. August: My name is Ashley August. I have been in the cavern only a few days...but it is my home now.
(01/13 12:03:35)  Butch: Nis'ah
(01/13 12:03:47)  Nis'ah: I'm Nisah and I started during Prolog and I'm not affiliated with any group or organization
(01/13 12:03:50)  Butch: ireenquench
(01/13 12:04:12)  ireenquench: I preferto be called ireen, I have been in Uruand UU since prologue, I have worked with several groups, but only speak for myself.
(01/13 12:04:19)  Butch: amonre
(01/13 12:04:33)  amonre: I'm amonre, and I run Myst Blogs, UruVote, and the DRCL elections, kind-of
(01/13 12:04:39)  Butch: Ward
(01/13 12:05:11)  tkwiggins: Shorah all
(01/13 12:05:29)  Butch: Ward, do you want to introduce yourself?
(01/13 12:05:38)  barker57: hi all
(01/13 12:05:46)  Ward: I'm Ward Edema. I'm the Reporter of Ward's D'ni Newsletter.
(01/13 12:05:50)  Butch: Relentless
(01/13 12:05:52)  Relentless: I'm relentless, came to the cavern about 6months ago in UU, affilitated with UEF but speak for my self
(01/13 12:05:53)  weeKIly Reporter: pff
(01/13 12:05:55)  Butch: Mingo
(01/13 12:06:27)  Migo: My name is Migo, I am  member of the UO hood, and represent myself
(01/13 12:06:29)  Butch: Thend
(01/13 12:06:33)  Thend: I.. am Thend.  Have been here and there since Prologue and I've rubbed shoulders with groups during my stay, but am not officially affiliated
(01/13 12:06:38)  Butch: Vortmax
(01/13 12:06:50) ireenquench would like to remind everyone to step closely into the chat bubble and please all use  /shout
(01/13 12:07:07)  Vortmax: Hey, I'm Vort.  Been around since old Prologue (wht a break for some of UU).  DRC Liaisons, UO 'hood member
(01/13 12:07:11)  Vortmax: *with
(01/13 12:07:13)  Butch: Skellington98
(01/13 12:07:18)  Skellington98: I'm Skellington98, was Greg in UU, and am only affiliated with the Up on the Roof! party hosts, but my opinon only reflects my own.
(01/13 12:07:23)  Butch: Whilyam
(01/13 12:07:23) Professor Askew waves
(01/13 12:07:24) Mystlander hugs Professor Askew
(01/13 12:07:48)  Whilyam: Whilyam. August 2005. No affiliation.
(01/13 12:07:49)  Hitana: I'm Hitana, have ever been Hitana since UU
(01/13 12:07:50)  Butch: barker57
(01/13 12:08:30)  barker57: hi all
(01/13 12:08:32)  Gilgameesh: shora all
(01/13 12:08:34)  Butch: Robert The Rebuilder
(01/13 12:08:53)  Robert The Rebuilder: Robert T. Rebuilder, May 2005, Guild of Age Builders, here with my restless 4-yr old son
(01/13 12:08:56)  Butch: Dovahn
(01/13 12:08:59)  MeKtonUru: :sit
(01/13 12:09:04)  Dovahn: I am Dovahn and I came in to the cavern during UU, but am still getting aquainted with everyone. I haven't officialy affiliated yet.
(01/13 12:09:07)  Butch: jimmyleg
(01/13 12:09:11)  jimmyleg: in prolog - currently in The Meeting Place - loose affiliations - glad to be back
(01/13 12:09:15)  Butch: sundog
(01/13 12:09:18)  sundog: My name is sundog an explorer since the  closed beta , no affiliation
(01/13 12:09:19)  Hitana: some know me as a wirter
(01/13 12:09:20)  Dave Mac: Are we waiting for something to happen?
(01/13 12:09:20)  Butch: Mystlander
(01/13 12:09:38)  Skellington98: Brb
(01/13 12:09:58)  Butch: Professor Askew
(01/13 12:09:58)  Vortmax: Dave, we're doing introductions
(01/13 12:10:05)  Dave Mac: OK.
(01/13 12:10:26)  Mystlander: Sorry... LAG
(01/13 12:10:40)  Professor Askew: Hi, all. Professor Askew. Interim liaison...maybe lol Great Tree Hood.
(01/13 12:10:46)  Butch: Gadren
(01/13 12:10:53)  Gadren: Hi, I'm Gadren -- been around since Prologue, recent Great Tree member, and, for now at least, Liaison
(01/13 12:10:57)  amonre: no interim liaison, at least not yet. :P
(01/13 12:10:57)  Butch: pirschen43
(01/13 12:11:12)  Hitana: I'm a member of the uru obsession hood now
(01/13 12:11:25)  pirschen43: I'm pirschen43, was in the beta in summer 03, wasn't in prologue or UU, no affiliations
(01/13 12:11:35)  Hitana: and i don't know what this affiliation thing means lol
(01/13 12:11:43)  Butch: twiggins
(01/13 12:11:46) Hitana blushes
(01/13 12:11:50)  Vortmax: Basically, are you connected to any groups, Hitana
(01/13 12:12:03)  tkwiggins: Prologue end of '03, UU Aug. '04. No affiliations.
(01/13 12:12:13)  Mystlander: I'm Mystlander (Mysty), in Prolouge, UU, UU:TOPTS, and now MOUL sinde November 2003.  Member of The Great Tree.
(01/13 12:12:17)  Thend: Affiliation as in what groups you are a part of or see yourself to represent
(01/13 12:12:26)  Butch: Dave Mac
(01/13 12:12:27)  Hitana: so i have one vort?
(01/13 12:13:02)  Dave Mac: I'm Dave.  I'm pretty new (about a month in the cavern).  I'm  a member of UO hood.
(01/13 12:13:05)  Butch: Ghaelen D'Lareh
(01/13 12:13:20)  Annie: How do you become affiated?
(01/13 12:13:52) From Ward: Hey, Btch. What are you doing man? Are you from Cyan or Gametap? This is sutch stupid!
(01/13 12:14:02)  Vortmax: Annie, it's really about how you consider yourself. :)  Do you feel like part of a group, or an independant player?
(01/13 12:14:14) To Ward: I'm just an Explorer, it's an open communty meeting
(01/13 12:14:16)  amonre: It means that you think the DRC is right, or Yeesha is right, etc... being affiliated is just what you think
(01/13 12:14:22)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: I am involved with CavernCommunications Network, the Shortwave, and other audio/video programs.  INdependent and cooperative
(01/13 12:14:32)  Hitana: i feel like a part of ---everything lol
(01/13 12:14:32)  Butch: Device
(01/13 12:14:57)  Device: Im Device, I was in Prologue and in D'mala; no affiliations
(01/13 12:15:00)  Butch: J'iim
(01/13 12:15:01)  Bear (I'm on the surface, be back in a minute):  
(01/13 12:15:02)  Vortmax: Works for me, Hitana :D
(01/13 12:15:03)  Annie: Oh, this is deeper than I thought.  Does it mean belonging to a particular Bevin?
(01/13 12:15:08)  Hitana: k
(01/13 12:15:15)  Hitana: thx ireen and vort :)
(01/13 12:15:29)  Thend: Not necessaarily Annie, only who you feel you may represent
(01/13 12:15:43)  Butch: Rima
(01/13 12:15:57)  Hitana: so, why do we meet here?
(01/13 12:16:01)  ireenquench: or if you feel attatched to a certain grup of people
(01/13 12:16:07)  Annie: If I wanted to join a Bevin, how would I do it?
(01/13 12:16:25)  Butch: The list is scrolling faster than I can keep up with is, so anyone I missed I'll give a few mintues to introduce your selves.  Sorry
(01/13 12:16:26)  Luke (I'm on the surface, be back in a minute):  
(01/13 12:16:35)  Butch: I'll add that to lessions learned.
(01/13 12:16:59)  Professor Askew: heh
(01/13 12:17:05)  Butch: Now on to the next section.
(01/13 12:17:06)  Hitana: btw hello butch! :)
(01/13 12:17:07)  weeKIly Reporter: Hello WeeKIly Reporter here, I'm a Reporter for "The WeeKIly" KI-Newsletter 
(01/13 12:17:23)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: wait a minute, Butch
(01/13 12:17:30)  Butch: I'm waiting.
(01/13 12:17:34)  Ruby O'Degee: I am Ruby O'Degee, and I am here for Cavern Communications Network.  Lakewater Indy Productions
(01/13 12:17:41)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: ok, just another minute or two
(01/13 12:17:42)  Vortmax: Anyone else want to introduce themselves?
(01/13 12:18:03)  Gilgameesh: Gilgameesh, aka Gilga'meesh for the entire Prologue. Myst fan member of the Italian D'ni Explorers, now Italian Bevin. few months in UU
(01/13 12:18:35)  Annie: Thanks!
(01/13 12:18:38)  Hitana: oh, and i'm german
(01/13 12:19:04) Skellington98 does a lagdance
(01/13 12:19:07)  Butch: The format for most of this meeting will be the facilitator (me) will post a question to the group, and then get out of the way.  I believe we have about 10 minutes for open conversation on that question.  
(01/13 12:19:23)  Butch: At about 10 minutes, I will call time and post the next question
(01/13 12:19:35)  Butch: There is no format for what happens in that 10 minutes.
(01/13 12:19:49)  Butch: I would like everyone to just talk about the topic
(01/13 12:19:52)  Whilyam: Do we go onstage or from here.
(01/13 12:20:06)  Vortmax: Whil:  I'd say from here.  Just for the sake of logistics.
(01/13 12:20:10)  Gadren: From here would be easier
(01/13 12:20:11)  Butch: From the floor would be best, to give everyone the most time.
(01/13 12:20:16)  Whilyam: Good.
(01/13 12:20:20)  Butch: Is everyone ready
(01/13 12:20:25)  Migo: yes
(01/13 12:20:27)  Hitana: yes
(01/13 12:20:30)  Butch: First section is on general MO:UL community
(01/13 12:20:30) Vortmax nods his head
(01/13 12:20:33) amonre nods his head
(01/13 12:20:35)  Gilgameesh: yes
(01/13 12:20:36)  Mystlander: Affirmative
(01/13 12:20:37)  Skellington98: ok
(01/13 12:20:38)  Dovahn: Darn, I have to go now.
(01/13 12:20:46)  Dr. August: I'll speak to you later, Dovahn.
(01/13 12:20:47)  Skellington98: Bye Dovahn
(01/13 12:20:50)  Butch: What kind of organization should the Explorers pursue inside the Cavern?
(01/13 12:20:55)  Hitana: bye dovahn
(01/13 12:20:59)  Butch: You have 10 minutes
(01/13 12:21:07)  Vortmax: Ah, now isn't that the $64,000 question?
(01/13 12:21:12)  Dovahn: Shorah, all.
(01/13 12:21:15)  Hitana: lol
(01/13 12:21:27)  Dr. August: I think it should be a union.
(01/13 12:21:27)  Gilgameesh: shora Dovahn
(01/13 12:21:29)  Migo: Pursue what gives you joy
(01/13 12:21:30)  Hitana: what kind of organization do you think of?
(01/13 12:21:36)  Dave Mac: Is there really a need for such formal organization?
(01/13 12:21:39)  Whilyam: Gather with who you like. Avoid those you don't.
(01/13 12:21:40)  Vortmax: Whatever it is, it has to be representative of everyone who wants to be involved.
(01/13 12:21:41)  Thend: It would seem 'Why' is an integral question here
(01/13 12:21:50)  Hitana: of course
(01/13 12:21:56)  Dr. August: So that we have a unified voice.
(01/13 12:21:57)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: I don't think one explorer can impose any kind of organization on another, IMO
(01/13 12:22:02)  Gilgameesh: i don't think a one big org can be useful, people tend to stick with friends
(01/13 12:22:03)  Dave Mac: I'll drink to that, Thend.
(01/13 12:22:12)  Whilyam: No explorer organization is needed. Nor would it be best as it appears few can decide on one thing.
(01/13 12:22:15)  Thend: No, Ghaelen, it would have to be communal
(01/13 12:22:27)  Gilgameesh: but a sort of cooperation between orgs would be natural
(01/13 12:22:28)  Hitana: indeed gilgameesh!
(01/13 12:22:28)  Butch: My view is that we have always followed an organization of trust, consensus and respect
(01/13 12:22:29)  Gadren: I ahve to agree with Dave Mac -- in the past, I've found that structured organizations lead to bureaucracy and things aren't as efficient -- or fun -- as if there's a more free market amorphous system set up
(01/13 12:22:34)  Skellington98: i agree with Whilyam
(01/13 12:22:35)  Dave Mac: It's just one more way to separate people.  We shouldn't be doing that.
(01/13 12:22:41)  jimmyleg: TMG bevin's charter is without specific affiliation - i like that
(01/13 12:22:42)  Vortmax: The "why" in my mind is that if we have a larger, more unified voice, it'll be harder for the DRC and Cate to ignore us.
(01/13 12:22:49)  Dr. August: Perhaps every different opinion should have a union. Like pro-DRC, anti-DRC, pro-Yeesha...
(01/13 12:22:53)  Hitana: lol vort
(01/13 12:22:57)  Whilyam: The sad fact is that explorers cannot be made into one organization.
(01/13 12:23:04)  Vortmax: It would have to be open to EVERYONE though, regardless of any affiliations.
(01/13 12:23:05)  ireenquench: I think the explorers should organize themselves as they please ... but should not expect representation with Cyan.... sonce that is an impossible goal to handle in a fair and just manner, concerning groups or indiviuals.... OOCly, we are all equal as paying customers... everythign else is just play... and should have no consequneces in game
(01/13 12:23:13)  Thend: the casual manner of Uru/the explorers seems to go in an opposite direction to this proposal
(01/13 12:23:16)  Skellington98: and Butch on that too
(01/13 12:23:17)  Gadren: My experience as a Liaison has showed me that it's futile to try and have one organization to try and speak for everyone -- or to have an organization which everything thinks is supposed to speak for everyone
(01/13 12:23:19)  Dave Mac: A large group will just need leaders, and that will be one more derisive drama for everyone to deal with.
(01/13 12:23:34)  Kiteerah: No we can't be ONE organization, but that could be what the DRCL's are for, our representatives meet with them
(01/13 12:23:42)  Gilgameesh: i agree, Gadren
(01/13 12:23:48)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: I don't think any explorer has the right to impose their idea on another, either.  So, why the need to attempt organization?
(01/13 12:23:56)  Vortmax: That's the down aide.  The Community has a long-standing tradition of breaking into factions and arguing.  I want to see that stop, and I'd hope this is a way to do it.
(01/13 12:24:00)  Vortmax: *side
(01/13 12:24:06)  Butch: The DRCL are a topic later in the meeting.
(01/13 12:24:11)  sundog: Why not bring back or re-introduce the guild system ?
(01/13 12:24:16)  Thend: A Hood might be possible, it's casual but can have a larger organizational property if necessary
(01/13 12:24:17)  Hitana: lol
(01/13 12:24:30)  Migo: By defaull, We are already, THE explorers
(01/13 12:24:31)  Gadren: OOC I tihnk that if a guild system starts, it needs to be started by Cyan/DRC
(01/13 12:24:33)  jimmyleg: i agree, thend
(01/13 12:24:35)  Ruby O'Degee: But democracy is messy Vortmax
(01/13 12:24:36)  Dr. August: I think that's on the DRC's checklist...but who knhows when that will get done.
(01/13 12:24:40)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: Guilds are by their nature exclusionary.  Is that what our community is about?
(01/13 12:24:49)  Vortmax: We do know Cyan wants to bring back the guilds. That might be something we could start now.
(01/13 12:24:50)  Thend: migo, as said, we don't have ONE voice though as explorers
(01/13 12:24:53) ireenquench isnt sure if we are still blurbing about Butchs first question and would like BUtch to repeat it
(01/13 12:24:57)  Sifr: I think that factions are inevitable, if you try to stamp them out, isn't that technically facism?
(01/13 12:24:58)  sundog: or common intersts ?
(01/13 12:25:13)  Gadren: Well, specialization has its advantages...it's what allows for civilization
(01/13 12:25:22)  Butch: The first question is: What kind of organization should Explorers pursue
(01/13 12:25:27)  Gilgameesh: from the experience in other mmo games, i think orgs are useful if related to the story, to play grouped we just need a sort of teaming, unrelated with guilds
(01/13 12:25:29)  sundog: and cultural growth
(01/13 12:25:32)  Butch: About 5 more minutes
(01/13 12:25:34)  Dr. August: Yes. Like-minded individuals should gather and decide what is best for them.
(01/13 12:25:37)  Dave Mac: I think the we are blurbing about an assumption within Butch's question.
(01/13 12:25:40)  Migo: If you want ONE voice...you need to define, for What
(01/13 12:25:43)  Thend: Yes
(01/13 12:25:47)  Ruby O'Degee: i have no issue with guilds, but a guild to manage guilds is not going to work
(01/13 12:25:51) Ghaelen D'Lareh likes to use her OWN voice
(01/13 12:26:01)  Hitana: if there really has to be one, what possibilities do we have?
(01/13 12:26:05)  Device: Do Explorers NEED to pursue an organization though? No need to pressure people to do these things
(01/13 12:26:21)  Vortmax: Should we decide on a system, I like something more representative.  People who are willing and able to speak for us on various things.
(01/13 12:26:22)  Migo: organized to represent ourselves to DRC, Cyan?
(01/13 12:26:25)  Gilgameesh: the people must be free to play as they feel
(01/13 12:26:28)  tkwiggins: I kinda doubt any general, all-inclusive explorers' organization would be stable for long. Organizations are created to achieve common goals, accomplish common tasks -- it seems that definition of such goals would need to come first, and and organization then created to achieve them.
(01/13 12:26:30)  Thend: One voice in the hub-bub may not be enough in certain situations Ghaelen, hence this meting
(01/13 12:26:31)  Vortmax: Migo, to the DRC mostly
(01/13 12:26:31)  pirschen43: Just keep in mind that the majority of explorers (OOC the casual players that MOUL will need to stay alive) will never have the time or interest to pursue being in an organization
(01/13 12:26:34)  Dave Mac: I think organizations in this sort of game really turn off new people (like me).
(01/13 12:26:52)  Ward: He, anyone wants a drink? He, he!
(01/13 12:26:58)  Whilyam: I think the Liaisons do a good enough job at being a voice with the DRC
(01/13 12:27:04) Thend nods his head
(01/13 12:27:06)  ireenquench: I like my own voice and everybody elses own voice and i think everybody can organize themselves as they see fit and want to play... but not be "rewarded" by the game, Cyan should treat everybody equally as paying customers.
(01/13 12:27:11)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: Thend, I wasn't talking about using my voice for anyone else but me, but only for myself
(01/13 12:27:11)  Sifr: i agree with Dave, new players won't like being bossed around and made to join something
(01/13 12:27:16)  Vortmax: and it's important to note that nobody would be forced into this.  This is just something which would be there for those who want it.
(01/13 12:27:36)  Migo: I agree ireen
(01/13 12:27:43)  jimmyleg: i agree, whily, liaisons are necessary
(01/13 12:27:44)  Hitana: organization is kind of spitting for me, to be honest
(01/13 12:27:49)  Butch: 3 more mintues on the question of What kind of organization should explorers pursue in the cavern
(01/13 12:27:50)  Gadren: Perhaps the best thing would be how people have already started smaller groups for serving specific needs... there's UO with their news updates, TCT with their podcasts, a D'ni artistic group, a D'ni linguists foundation...
(01/13 12:27:58)  ireenquench: we arent taling about the DRCLs yet are we? this is general
(01/13 12:28:00)  amonre: well... you are you... you are not an organisation ;)
(01/13 12:28:08)  Hitana: lol amon
(01/13 12:28:09)  tkwiggins: I agree with Gad on that
(01/13 12:28:10)  Thend: yes, Ghaelen, but the impact individual voices versus a unified one, that's the difference
(01/13 12:28:28)  Whilyam: People should join whatever group they choose. Organizing as they choose. No Explorer Union or anything like that.
(01/13 12:28:52)  jimmyleg: but hoods have always played a large part of development
(01/13 12:28:53)  ireenquench: and people should be able to participate in more than one group
(01/13 12:28:54)  Dave Mac: I think the DRCLs are fine, but we all see how much friggin drama it has caused.  Can you imagine the impact of a larger group like a union with union leaders? Oy vey!
(01/13 12:29:03)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: I don't quite follow you, Thend... are you saying individual voices are better?  worse?
(01/13 12:29:05)  Migo: It grows with time, our voices gather to various interests, people form groups for that if they wish
(01/13 12:29:08)  Butch: 2 more mintues on the question of What kind of organization should Explorers pursue in the Cavern.
(01/13 12:29:08)  Thend: If there was a purpose that concerned and activated many, then folks may rally around it
(01/13 12:29:09) Skellington98 wants dual hood residence
(01/13 12:29:10)  Vortmax: So Whil, basically just join whichever group suits you, and then work with that group to become a larger voice?
(01/13 12:29:10)  Whilyam: We need to end the Liaison drama..
(01/13 12:29:11)  Nalates: Unless there is some unifying problem I doubt we will cooperate.
(01/13 12:29:15)  Dr. August: According to Cate, DRC affiliate, DRCLs maybe be elminiated...
(01/13 12:29:22)  Dave Mac: Amen, Whil.
(01/13 12:29:22)  Hitana: they organize themselves in their litte groups, thats all we need
(01/13 12:29:23)  Gadren: let's talk about the liaisons later, ok?
(01/13 12:29:26)  ireenquench: we can never be unified, because ou interests and views are different
(01/13 12:29:32)  Ward: -wave
(01/13 12:29:32)  Thend: Ghalen, depends on the situation, that's all
(01/13 12:29:33)  Butch: DRCL are a later topic
(01/13 12:29:41) Ward waves
(01/13 12:29:42)  Whilyam: Of course. They tie into organization however
(01/13 12:29:44)  Skellington98: how muuch time left on this topic?
(01/13 12:29:46)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: oh, I see.  I agree with that
(01/13 12:29:47)  Dr. August: But we have SOME common interests.
(01/13 12:29:53)  Sifr: the problem is we're assuming without an organisation we're in anarchy... are we at the moment?
(01/13 12:29:59)  Butch: 1 minute on the question of what kind of organization should Exploers pursue in the Cavern
(01/13 12:30:03)  Dr. August: We're in dictatorship right now.
(01/13 12:30:04)  Hitana: okay i think butch wants an answeer on this...
(01/13 12:30:10)  Gilgameesh: this will transform the game in a 'elite only' game.....
(01/13 12:30:11)  Hitana: lol
(01/13 12:30:15)  Dave Mac: I still haven't heard a convincing answer to the WHY question.
(01/13 12:30:20)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: How so, Dr. August?
(01/13 12:30:21)  ireenquench: wanting to be here, thats about our only common interest abd opinion
(01/13 12:30:29)  Whilyam: My answer: No official organization. Let people do what they want.
(01/13 12:30:29)  Thend: So, commonality, then, may be the thing, the issue, not making arbitrary alliances
(01/13 12:30:30)  Butch: TIME
(01/13 12:30:36)  Kiteerah: I think representatives from each group should meet together occassionally to discuss various concerns
(01/13 12:30:45)  Butch: The first question is closed.
(01/13 12:30:46) Sifr takes his hand off the buzzer... :)
(01/13 12:30:48)  Dr. August: The DRC, Ghaelen. They control us.
(01/13 12:30:50) Hitana shakes her head
(01/13 12:30:51)  Whilyam: Next.
(01/13 12:30:56)  Ruby O'Degee: what are the concerns you speak of?
(01/13 12:30:57)  Migo: The answer is ....there is no SHOULD....there is what each will do
(01/13 12:31:06)  Vortmax: Clean cup, clean cup!  Move down, move down!
(01/13 12:31:08)  tkwiggins: We have commen interests for sure... but I don't think the majority of explorers feel there is a common problem. At least enough so to warrant cavern-wide orgs such as an explorers' union.
(01/13 12:31:15)  Nalates: Migo, good point!
(01/13 12:31:21)  Gadren: TIME means TIME, everyone
(01/13 12:31:27) ireenquench would like to remind everyonne that this is an OOC meeting, becuase that is important to keep in mind
(01/13 12:31:28)  Gilgameesh: if any player will able to create a org and play with it, the community will automatically balance them.... no way to pre constitute orgs
(01/13 12:31:33)  Kiteerah: Whatever is the concern of the time
(01/13 12:31:35)  Whilyam: In short SHUT UP!
(01/13 12:31:35)  Migo: DRC and representation is a different issue
(01/13 12:31:46)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: hey, Whilyam.....
(01/13 12:31:48)  Vortmax: Butch:  Question 2?
(01/13 12:31:50)  Butch: The second question is Should we be organized around HOODS or non-Hood organizations as the basis of a community wide organization, should one exist?
(01/13 12:31:50)  Migo: oops
(01/13 12:31:56)  Butch: You have 10 minutes.
(01/13 12:32:06)  Vortmax: In short, both
(01/13 12:32:10)  Hitana: puh
(01/13 12:32:15)  Migo: yes
(01/13 12:32:15)  jimmyleg: both
(01/13 12:32:16)  Dr. August: Both. There should be Guilds/groups and hoods, but we should be able to join more than one.
(01/13 12:32:16)  Hitana: yes both
(01/13 12:32:17)  Skellington98: both
(01/13 12:32:21)  Vortmax: Again, it's the "how"
(01/13 12:32:28)  Kiteerah: Both
(01/13 12:32:29)  Hitana: i agree dr. august!
(01/13 12:32:31)  tkwiggins: Both
(01/13 12:32:36)  Whilyam: Both. And there can be no community-wide organization, because we all think differen on some things.
(01/13 12:32:36) Dr. August cheers
(01/13 12:32:39)  Gilgameesh: free choice for, i stay with my point: pleople must be free to play as they feel
(01/13 12:32:40)  Jaytee: both
(01/13 12:32:41)  Gadren: I think that saying "should" here isn't good because that's everyone's decision...are there any advantages or disadvantages to either?
(01/13 12:32:46)  Thend: I doubt some would be so willing to give up their Hood membership,/allegiance, though using a seperate avvie for this purpose may be the answe
(01/13 12:32:46)  Vortmax: Nothing is stopping you from being involved in multiple groups, either.
(01/13 12:32:49)  Sifr: definitely organised around hoods, with some main connection to who's running the city...
(01/13 12:32:51) Ghaelen D'Lareh thinks that if there is not enough convincing evidence for organization at all, the way to organize is a mute point
(01/13 12:33:10)  Hitana: btw is anyone recording this?
(01/13 12:33:13)  Whilyam: Yes
(01/13 12:33:14) Butch is
(01/13 12:33:17)  Skellington98: butch is
(01/13 12:33:22)  Hitana: good
(01/13 12:33:26) Hitana thanks you
(01/13 12:33:35)  ireenquench: I think we should not be organized as a community-wide organization, because that task is impossible and will only lead to unfair representation, thus the question of hood representation is moot (because it is unfair)
(01/13 12:33:38)  Dave Mac: Guilds=WoW=pain and suffering, and pwning and n00bs, none of which have a place in Uru.
(01/13 12:33:51)  Butch: So the assumption to the question is flawed, that it should be one wya or the other.
(01/13 12:33:59)  Hitana: hmm
(01/13 12:34:02) Ghaelen D'Lareh agrees with Dave Mac
(01/13 12:34:13)  Migo: correct, Butch
(01/13 12:34:13)  Gilgameesh: there is not only WoW around and all depends by content of game
(01/13 12:34:15)  Whilyam: Correct, no organization/representation. However, people should be able to gather in hood or non-hood
(01/13 12:34:17)  Thend: Guiilds in WOW are not necessairly applicable to Guilds in Uru
(01/13 12:34:44)  Dr. August: OOC: URU is non-competitive, however.
(01/13 12:35:00)  Dave Mac: I was kind of making a joke with the WoW thing.
(01/13 12:35:03)  Whilyam: If this question is moot, shall we moveo nto the next one?
(01/13 12:35:03)  Gilgameesh: agree, thend. don't compare wow with uru :)
(01/13 12:35:08)  Butch: 5 minutes on the question of hoods or non-hoods as the basis for organization.
(01/13 12:35:08)  Skellington98: OOC: but we have made t a place for fun copetition
(01/13 12:35:10)  Migo: Do what you will, harm none
(01/13 12:35:15)  Whilyam: Butch?
(01/13 12:35:17)  Skellington98: OOC: Dni olympics
(01/13 12:35:26)  Butch: Yes, Whilyam.
(01/13 12:35:27)  Hitana: so what were the two possibilities again? 
(01/13 12:35:31)  Skellington98: ooc: A- Zandi Shirt races
(01/13 12:35:35)  Sifr: if we have it like the Commonwealth you get every hood who asks to be represented having an equal say... (as opposed to a UN or EU sort of system) 
(01/13 12:35:37)  Dave Mac: Hood and non-hood.
(01/13 12:35:44)  Whilyam: If this question is moot, why not move onto the next one?
(01/13 12:35:47)  Hitana: thanks dave
(01/13 12:35:47)  Thend: Whatever works, IMO, a purpose defines the medium.  And agree that affiliation should not have to be exclusive
(01/13 12:35:51)  Butch: if the question is flawed, then attack the question
(01/13 12:35:57)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: agreed re: moving on
(01/13 12:35:58) Whilyam shrugs
(01/13 12:36:09) Whilyam decapitates the question
(01/13 12:36:16) Butch starts to laugh
(01/13 12:36:18)  Migo: we are family...
(01/13 12:36:22)  tkwiggins: lol
(01/13 12:36:26)  Dr. August: How many questions are there?
(01/13 12:36:26)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: lol
(01/13 12:36:27)  Hitana: lol
(01/13 12:36:30)  Butch: 10
(01/13 12:36:35)  Dave Mac: I think we may be considering the organizations a bit too formally.
(01/13 12:36:36)  Thend: So, loose rather than some stringiant format
(01/13 12:36:53)  ireenquench: I am also strongly opposed to official guilds at this point in time, should that mean that players that may be interested in a certain topic a guild is for  are deprived from certain priviledges a guild may have... and should the guild be led by players who would be allowed to make decisions over others... I want to pusure my interests as i see fit, I want to be able to join several groups or not, I dont want anyone making decisions for me
(01/13 12:36:58)  Thend: gah!
(01/13 12:37:04)  Whilyam: TEXT!
(01/13 12:37:18)  Butch: If that is what we think the Explorers should purse, rather than what DRC/Cyan forced on us, yes, loose organization.
(01/13 12:37:18)  Skellington98: huh?
(01/13 12:37:23)  Hitana: yes thats right ireen
(01/13 12:37:25)  sundog: Am I correct that what we are discussing is how to encourage explorer to explorer interaction or is the status quo all right (hoods), what are the other possiblities 
(01/13 12:37:34)  jimmyleg: the ki overhead might play a part in multiple hoods?
(01/13 12:37:34)  Migo: Well, heck, you know, you want to form a stringent society, group...I cannot stop you, and may not join you
(01/13 12:37:35)  ireenquench: Cyan as the game designers are the only authority i want to accept, i don not even accept the DRC as the full authority
(01/13 12:37:36)  Butch: That's the next question sundog
(01/13 12:37:43)  Dave Mac: What the heck have DRC/Cyan forced on us?
(01/13 12:37:53)  Thend: sundog, organization possibilities
(01/13 12:37:53)  Dave Mac: We're not oppressed, we're playing a dang game!
(01/13 12:37:56)  Whilyam: Some would say, Liaisons.
(01/13 12:37:57) Dr. August cheers
(01/13 12:38:01)  Hitana: lol
(01/13 12:38:02)  Dr. August: Thank you Ireen.
(01/13 12:38:02)  sundog: thnks :-)
(01/13 12:38:04)  Migo: ireen, agreed
(01/13 12:38:05)  Skellington98: aw. i gotta go
(01/13 12:38:08)  Gilgameesh: cyan/gametap have different issue on this: legal questions and other eula related. 
(01/13 12:38:09)  Whilyam: However explorers asked for those first
(01/13 12:38:11)  Skellington98: shorah 'tee all
(01/13 12:38:16)  Hitana: bye skellington
(01/13 12:38:32)  ireenquench: since there is also the option to "play alone" i see no way how these players could be fairly represented in any hood based or guld based representation
(01/13 12:38:33)  Gilgameesh: the point of view is different
(01/13 12:38:38)  Butch: Do we want to close this question early?  Many of us seem to agree that it is flawed.
(01/13 12:38:40)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: OOC: isn't the DRC imposition part of the overall story?  Therefore necessary to it in ways we "IC" don't yet understand??
(01/13 12:38:45)  Ruby O'Degee: Yes, I have the same question.  What does the liaison do that affects me an an explorer?
(01/13 12:38:48)  Vortmax: How much time is left?
(01/13 12:38:52) Whilyam cuts off the questions punctuation marks
(01/13 12:38:52)  Thend: Who decides for us, as a group, as ireen said, is a good point, and troublesome
(01/13 12:38:58)  Whilyam: I'm still attacking it
(01/13 12:39:03)  Hitana: indeed!
(01/13 12:39:03)  Butch: 2 mintues on the question of hoods v. non-hoods as the basis of organziation 
(01/13 12:39:15)  Valdez: shorah evreyone
(01/13 12:39:36)  ireenquench: if some form of representation will be forced upon us.... NOT hood based
(01/13 12:39:38)  Vortmax: Yes, I think that's flawed.  It can't be one or the other.  It would leave too many people out.
(01/13 12:39:44)  Sifr: exactly, we have the right to be antisocial if we choose...
(01/13 12:39:47)  Hitana: yes
(01/13 12:39:51)  Migo: You decide, yourself, actually, the powers that be...do something you don't like...vote with your feet, pocket book,
(01/13 12:39:53)  Hitana: lol sifr
(01/13 12:40:03)  Dave Mac: I think this question has, at its core, the same flawed presumption of the first one. Do we really need a formal organizational structure?
(01/13 12:40:10)  Hitana: YOU ARE YOU, you know what i mean ;)
(01/13 12:40:11)  Thend: If things are designed like this, though Butch is the moderator, things can possibly proceed peacefully for all, with each doing their own paerticular bit afterwards
(01/13 12:40:14)  Butch: TIME
(01/13 12:40:19)  Gilgameesh: we don't need
(01/13 12:40:21)  Whilyam: The rest ofthe questions in this section also deal with the community-wide org idea and are also flawed.
(01/13 12:40:30)  Butch: The question is closed. 
(01/13 12:40:31)  ireenquench: indeed, we dont need all this, thats my point, its more hurtfull than helpfull
(01/13 12:40:38)  Hitana: yes
(01/13 12:40:50)  Hitana: next question, please!
(01/13 12:40:52) Ghaelen D'Lareh nods
(01/13 12:40:55)  Vortmax: Heh, call me a dreamer, but I think it could be very useful.
(01/13 12:40:59)  Migo: We got anything positive to work on?
(01/13 12:41:03) Ghaelen D'Lareh nods to Ireen's statement
(01/13 12:41:16)  Dave Mac: Positive? This is Uru, we don't do positive.
(01/13 12:41:21)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: this isn't positive?
(01/13 12:41:22) Vortmax laughs
(01/13 12:41:27)  Butch: Next question, Under any organizaqtion, including none, how do we represent and balance the contribution of large and small groups alike?
(01/13 12:41:29) yogayoda laughs
(01/13 12:41:36)  Gadren: Until we have concrete needs for people to step up and solve, abstract discussions about organization can't really do much good
(01/13 12:41:36)  Whilyam: Positive sucks! It hides logs from us and does evil things!
(01/13 12:41:37)  Valdez: only negetive?
(01/13 12:41:55)  ireenquench: NONE NONE NONE lol
(01/13 12:41:55)  Dr. August: Incredible question!
(01/13 12:41:58)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: what?
(01/13 12:42:01) Sifr takes a moment to get his brain around the question and stop going blanked...
(01/13 12:42:05)  Valdez: ok, anyone start a log on this?
(01/13 12:42:17)  Thend: ireen, by your statement on this possible organizing, you appear to make a blanket condemnation of froming into any groups at all, no matter the intent
(01/13 12:42:20) Hitana thinks she didn't understand that question
(01/13 12:42:27)  Butch: Rewording: How do we keep larger groups from walking over smaller ones?
(01/13 12:42:28)  Gilgameesh: this is automatically solved by each group, no need to have redetermined rules
(01/13 12:42:30)  Vortmax: Again, and interesting question.  We have to find a way to involve all of those who want it, regardless of affiliation
(01/13 12:42:30)  Migo: please repeat the question?, it has scrolled out
(01/13 12:42:34)  Gadren: Through the free market -- I don't think we need a strict system of giving people voices... but those that are able to do more and help people will end up having a say in things, on their own
(01/13 12:42:43)  Whilyam: None. People must do this themselves. Ask a Liaison their concern and have it weeded out by popular opinion.
(01/13 12:42:43) Ambientkatz shakes his head
(01/13 12:42:51)  Gilgameesh: i already suggested: teaming
(01/13 12:43:09)  Butch: The question is: How do we balance and represent the contribution of all groups large and small.
(01/13 12:43:09)  Kiteerah: By each group having an equal voice
(01/13 12:43:16)  Valdez: i will start a log
(01/13 12:43:18)  Gilgameesh: whaqt we need is the chat working, not necessarily the same instance
(01/13 12:43:20)  Dave Mac: Representation to whom?
(01/13 12:43:23)  jimmyleg: contributions are without specific award.  adventure, discovery, and noteriety are the rewards maybe
(01/13 12:43:23)  Vortmax: Valdez, Butch is logging
(01/13 12:43:26)  Whilyam: People cannot be included if they don't speak up. This job goes to the people.
(01/13 12:43:29)  Hitana: ans why?
(01/13 12:43:30)  pirschen43: Contribution towards what
(01/13 12:43:31)  Hitana: and
(01/13 12:43:35)  Valdez: ah
(01/13 12:43:36)  weeKIly Reporter: Set up a democracy? :P
(01/13 12:43:42)  Butch: Contribution to the comunity
(01/13 12:43:42)  ireenquench: I love groups, I love organizing myself... we all can do that in our natural flow, it should not be officially forced... it is in our nature to form teams about things.... let it happen without it being tied to some kind of "representation"
(01/13 12:43:47)  Thend: If we come to a concensus, then have the freedom to decide whether our particular specialities can carry it out, or if we want to at all, then we could proceed, as a 'group'
(01/13 12:43:49)  Dave Mac: I can't think of a way one group could possibly affect another.
(01/13 12:43:58)  Hitana: i agree with ireen
(01/13 12:43:59)  yogayoda: a galactic republic
(01/13 12:44:03)  Whilyam: Talk to Liaisons, talk to other explorers to get your idea/faction/whatever recognised more
(01/13 12:44:07)  Vortmax: That's one thought.  Perhaps a bicameral legislature, based on both representation for groups and representation based on population.
(01/13 12:44:16)  Sifr: i suppose what we could do is have the liasons have a hood bulletin board on the imager, you have an issue, give it to them, they put it on the imager, then every week or so discuss it to the DRC?
(01/13 12:44:18)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: Cavern life is much like real life.....not all voices are heard everyday. Unfortunate, but realistic.
(01/13 12:44:20)  pirschen43: In terms of contributing to just a feeling of "community" each group, big and small, is its own communicty and can interact with other groups/individuals as they please
(01/13 12:44:21)  Vortmax: Not "legislature", but you know what I mean.
(01/13 12:44:22)  Gadren: O_o *winces at the idea of legislature*
(01/13 12:44:25)  Gadren: :P
(01/13 12:44:27)  Gilgameesh: agree, ireen. it will be automatic. any group freely organize themselves
(01/13 12:44:30)  Whilyam: We don't want a legislature
(01/13 12:44:32)  Butch: 5 minutes of the question of how do we represent and balance the contribution of all groups large and small in the cavern
(01/13 12:44:43)  Thend: Individuals should not be handicapped because they do not wish to be a part of any official group
(01/13 12:44:46)  pirschen43: OOC they don't contribute to anything specific in the game, just a community feeling
(01/13 12:44:53)  Hitana: yes thend!
(01/13 12:44:56)  Ruby O'Degee: we can't balance contribution.  It doesn't work that way.  Explorers contribute when they can and will.  If they don't get criticized too much, and therein lies some problems
(01/13 12:45:01)  Vortmax: Exactly, Thend.
(01/13 12:45:06)  Gadren: Here's my rule of thumb:  don't think of these groups as if they're nations or states or provinces or parties...think of them as interest groups
(01/13 12:45:07)  Hitana: indeed!
(01/13 12:45:12)  Whilyam: I'd say leave this up to explorers. Let them voice their opinions their own way. See what I did withthe Liaison issue just by asking a REs Eng. Got Cate to talk to Vort next day.
(01/13 12:45:20)  Vortmax: The independants must also have representation
(01/13 12:45:21)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: but all groups, if they have a hood, could easily be represented by having the name of their hood on the public list if they wanted it to be seen
(01/13 12:45:21)  jimmyleg: i agree, gadren
(01/13 12:45:40)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: and Cyan has to fix that
(01/13 12:45:45)  Migo: Look, if Butch has specifically said, this is not about DRC and representations, then ....the issue, becoming muddied
(01/13 12:45:47)  Butch: The question is how to repersent and balance the contribution of all groups in the cavern, large and small.
(01/13 12:45:47)  Valdez: man, you guys are turning a computer game into a country!
(01/13 12:45:57)  ireenquench: we have to trust the natural flow of enough of us being capable of organizing us among ourselves... it is possible... i did it during UU the entire time... but it has nothing to do with representation or rewards... its just what people do anyway, in a simple way.... and should they decide to remain solitary thats fine too.
(01/13 12:45:59)  Ruby O'Degee: we are all indepeendants aren't we?  
(01/13 12:46:03)  Gilgameesh: in any game there are groups but any player can group with others just for the actual task, so no need any special rule. just freedom
(01/13 12:46:07)  Thend: Groups can and do proceed freely, this is no different, if there is a REASON for it, a commonality that we all share and decide for ourselves to promote, whatever form that takes
(01/13 12:46:09)  Dave Mac: So now we're going to have groups of explorers each connected through a big representational group, which is then responsible to no one and has no authority and creates an unecessary buracracy and confuses newcomers? Great idea!
(01/13 12:46:18)  Nis'ah: One way would be to put their contributions in an easily accesable place for everyone
(01/13 12:46:20) Gadren starts to laugh
(01/13 12:46:39) Thend nods his head
(01/13 12:46:42) Ghaelen D'Lareh grins at Dave Mac
(01/13 12:46:51) weeKIly Reporter fans himself because this is getting heated
(01/13 12:46:58)  Butch: 3 mintues on the question of how to represent and blanace the contribution of all groups in the cavern, large and small
(01/13 12:46:58)  Ruby O'Degee: Anyone can plan an event or like and advertise it at Moul
(01/13 12:47:08)  Gilgameesh: this is really complicated and unnecessary. the community will evolve automatucally during gameplay just don't force anything
(01/13 12:47:08)  Dave Mac: Lets set up our own government.  Personally I'd prefer a unicameral legislature, but that's not a deal-breaker.
(01/13 12:47:19)  Hitana: lol
(01/13 12:47:23) Ambientkatz shakes his head
(01/13 12:47:25)  ireenquench: Doing something in a group is simple... get together , organize something do it.... if you dont like what people in your grpup do either work on it with them or leave the group
(01/13 12:47:26)  Whilyam: No.
(01/13 12:47:33)  sundog: I think alot of this starts with communications and clarity , such as the CNN, people feel included if they know whats going on 
(01/13 12:47:33)  Whilyam: No government
(01/13 12:47:35)  Valdez: Despotisum
(01/13 12:47:37)  Thend: Politics = NOT the answer
(01/13 12:47:38)  Dave Mac: AMEN, ireen.
(01/13 12:47:46)  Sifr: hehe, we're all independant though, would we be able to get everyone into a group?... good god, are we going to have a civil war and become browncoats? *has his on order*
(01/13 12:47:48)  Gadren: I wasn't shouting  before so I don't know if everyone got what I said...I just think that groups are interest groups and not nations or states...no one thinks that we need to set up an organization to represent the ACLU or Christian Coalition or all those interest groups
(01/13 12:47:53)  Nalates: I doubt contributions can be balanced. If they are worthwhile to the comunity they will be used and apprecaited. Otherwise the community will ignore them.
(01/13 12:47:54)  weeKIly Reporter: Heh Hence my KI-newsletter :P
(01/13 12:48:01)  Thend: the question here is more specific, I just noticed
(01/13 12:48:02)  Ruby O'Degee: Or an autocracy, is always nice.  Anyone here want to be king.  Vort ?  are you still available?
(01/13 12:48:06)  Butch: 2 mintues on the question of how to represent and balance the contribution of groups large and small.
(01/13 12:48:15)  Valdez: me
(01/13 12:48:16)  Valdez: me
(01/13 12:48:17)  Valdez: me
(01/13 12:48:17)  sundog: and the Ki Letter :)
(01/13 12:48:19)  yogayoda: a capital building!
(01/13 12:48:33)  Dr. August: This needs to be more organized.
(01/13 12:48:39)  Sifr: i say, Commonwealth. everyone who asks for a say, gets a say
(01/13 12:48:39)  Thend: Balance it where, Butch?
(01/13 12:48:39)  Dave Mac: You know, a facist dictatorship would be easiest.  I deem myself supreme ruler of all D'ni.
(01/13 12:48:40) Ghaelen D'Lareh roars with laughter
(01/13 12:48:44)  Valdez: King valdez
(01/13 12:48:45)  Whilyam: We do need some leadership to be the final word. I think that should be Cyan.
(01/13 12:48:57)  Butch: How do we keep larger groups from rolling over the smaller ones?
(01/13 12:48:59)  ireenquench: I just want to add one more thing.... the language barrier.... what to non-english speakers do? if so much of this will be regulated and rewarded, they will be excluded even further than they are now
(01/13 12:48:59)  Hitana: exactly
(01/13 12:49:00)  Vortmax: Too late you two. I'm already Emperor. :D
(01/13 12:49:03)  Nalates: The Cartographers enforced policy by using their own web site. That did not stop others from making their maps and only controlled the GoC's maps.
(01/13 12:49:05)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: yes, and we need more people in control <G>
(01/13 12:49:06)  Ruby O'Degee: Yes, facisim work too.  Very organized it is
(01/13 12:49:07)  jimmyleg: that is cyan
(01/13 12:49:18)  Ruby O'Degee: Oh sorry about the demotion vort
(01/13 12:49:22)  Butch: TiME
(01/13 12:49:24)  Dave Mac: We need NO ONE in control.  Thats's the point.
(01/13 12:49:28)  Whilyam: *BUZZ*
(01/13 12:49:31)  Thend: Yes, but in what context, Butch?  We already have groups working seperatelky and in harmony here
(01/13 12:49:31)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: right, Dave
(01/13 12:49:31)  Dave Mac: Thanks, Ghaelen.
(01/13 12:49:32)  Gadren: Right Nalates... groups will end up succeeding based on how well they give their services
(01/13 12:49:32) Sifr really isn't into being a king, can he be duke and just control the stairs or the alley?
(01/13 12:49:34)  Valdez: ha ha Vort
(01/13 12:49:39)  tkwiggins: I think the same impulse that leads to the creation of interest groups will work to balance them. Those groups that serve a purpose for enough people will remain, others will die of their own accord.
(01/13 12:49:42)  amonre: sorry, I keep having to run back and forth from here >_<
(01/13 12:49:45)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: lol
(01/13 12:49:51)  Gadren: UO's Cavern Today maybe be larger, but it's good to see a KI newsletter
(01/13 12:49:52)  Hitana: the larger groups have to be nice with the smaller ones
(01/13 12:49:53)  sundog: true
(01/13 12:50:03) Ambientkatz nods his head
(01/13 12:50:05)  weeKIly Reporter: Thank Gadren :)
(01/13 12:50:05)  Gadren: it's all about finding one's niche...UO isn't doing anything in the actual Cavern
(01/13 12:50:14)  Butch: Last question in this section.  How do we include unaligned and new Explorers who are willing to participate in community-wide evetns?
(01/13 12:50:17)  Dr. August: TCT doesn't report on user storylines, either.
(01/13 12:50:23)  Butch: 10 mintues on the question.
(01/13 12:50:24)  Dr. August: (OOC)
(01/13 12:50:26)  Sifr: we let them?
(01/13 12:50:32) amonre likes MYSTlore's news section ;)
(01/13 12:50:39)  Whilyam: Yeah, this question seems to answer itself for me.
(01/13 12:50:43)  Dave Mac: I'm an unaligned newcomer, and I found my way to this meeting.
(01/13 12:50:44)  Hitana: yes
(01/13 12:50:52)  Nalates: One of the best ways I've seen to do this is the Hood Viewrs, like those in this Hood.
(01/13 12:50:53)  Dave Mac: No one kept me out.
(01/13 12:50:55)  sundog: well again the hood system is important - this hood the begginers for instance
(01/13 12:50:55)  Sifr: if they want in, who are we to tell them to naff off?
(01/13 12:50:57)  yogayoda: im quite new also
(01/13 12:51:03)  Hitana: if they like, the ca ncome
(01/13 12:51:04)  Gadren: Well, how were people without group affiliation handled during the D'olympics?
(01/13 12:51:05)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: but CCN does, Dr. August
(01/13 12:51:07)  Butch: Then expand on the question, HOW to we get people invovled.
(01/13 12:51:08)  Hitana: can come
(01/13 12:51:11)  Thend: In-Cavern, as in in the Cavern, not the forums, communication.  Word-of-mouth so that evryone feels involved and that there's an actual community thing going on here
(01/13 12:51:19)  pirschen43: An in-game place to survey the existence of various "groups" would be great (other than just a list of public hoods)
(01/13 12:51:21)  tkwiggins: More ways to announce things in-game would help include more explorers... lots of whom don't frequent the forums.
(01/13 12:51:22)  Whilyam: Again, we let them.
(01/13 12:51:28)  Gadren: GoG is a good idea, we need more people welcoming and helping people
(01/13 12:51:35)  yogayoda: an announcement board
(01/13 12:51:46)  Sifr: are GoG that active?
(01/13 12:51:47)  Whilyam: If you're talking about events in the cavern, I think the DRC idea of posting in cavern and letting it seep into the forums is best.
(01/13 12:51:47)  Hitana: with adverds on the imager :)
(01/13 12:51:49)  sundog: in game 
(01/13 12:51:49)  tkwiggins: Announcement boards, reader screens.
(01/13 12:51:49)  Vortmax: Basically give them a voice.  Announce far and wide about things going on, and let them speak up with their concerns.  And then actually LISTEN and CONSIDER those concerns.
(01/13 12:51:54)  Gadren: I think on urulive.com there's an event calendar people can add events to
(01/13 12:51:55)  tkwiggins: KI messages
(01/13 12:51:56)  Nalates: Who controls the announcement board? 
(01/13 12:51:57)  Dave Mac: I think we should get a 30 second spot in the super bowl.
(01/13 12:51:59)  Thend: Announcement boards In-Cavern would be uber
(01/13 12:52:01)  weeKIly Reporter: Yes thats why I started the newsletter to inform those who are not in the cavern at all times to keep up with whats new
(01/13 12:52:02)  amonre: The GoG isn't as visible as I think it should be
(01/13 12:52:03)  Butch: The question is how do we include unaligned or new Exploerrs willing to participate in community-wide events
(01/13 12:52:05)  Thend: lol Dave
(01/13 12:52:05)  Sifr: they seemed to be a bit... erm... distant when i dropped into see them the other day
(01/13 12:52:06)  Ruby O'Degee: yes, gadren there is
(01/13 12:52:06)  Hitana: announcement boards!
(01/13 12:52:07)  ireenquench: we should just keep on telling newcomers what's happening... tell them about the stuff we do...spend time in the cavern adn point them to our sites... if they like it they can join, if they dont like it they can start their own stuff
(01/13 12:52:24)  Hitana: exactly
(01/13 12:52:27)  Kiteerah: I have to go, have a meeting
(01/13 12:52:30) Ambientkatz nods his head
(01/13 12:52:31)  amonre: bye kitee
(01/13 12:52:33)  Nalates: Horay Ireen!!!
(01/13 12:52:33)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: agreed, Ireen, and besides, that's part of the way the story could be told
(01/13 12:52:36)  Gilgameesh: this is a Cyan task not our...
(01/13 12:52:38)  Ruby O'Degee: yes, keep directing them to the event page at MOUL 
(01/13 12:52:38)  Butch: The question is how do we include unaligned or new Explorers willing to participate in community-wide events
(01/13 12:52:54)  Sheila'R: haven;t we always done that?
(01/13 12:53:01)  Vortmax: Tell them about what's going on.  Find out what they think.  Invite them to share their thoughts.
(01/13 12:53:05)  Sifr: i'm sure they'll just fall into the fray with the rest of us...
(01/13 12:53:06)  Dave Mac: Are we not doing that now?
(01/13 12:53:15)  amonre: your question implies that unaligned explorers are having a hard time participating... why is that?
(01/13 12:53:16)  Whilyam: I agree with Gilgamesh
(01/13 12:53:16)  Sheila'R: Exactly Dave Mac
(01/13 12:53:16)  Nalates: The best way is to talk to them in cavern
(01/13 12:53:16)  Hitana: yes!
(01/13 12:53:17)  Gadren: right... can anyone give an example of when that didn't happen?
(01/13 12:53:20)  Vortmax: Yeah, we are Dave. :D
(01/13 12:53:24)  sundog: well that is a point - one way is through the Kis to the imagers in the bevins - info can be spread virally - this worked for the new year parties for example
(01/13 12:53:29)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: why funnel all new explorers to one mondo place?  If we are part of the story, aren't our methods of passing on information just as valuable?
(01/13 12:53:30)  Thend: Yes, Sheila, just need to be more diligent In-Cavern now because of the immense influx of new explorers
(01/13 12:53:31)  Sifr: i mean, if Yeesha appears in the cavern, people drool and go "ooooo" then they'll figure out its important
(01/13 12:53:38)  jimmyleg: i agree, d mac
(01/13 12:53:41)  Hitana: lol
(01/13 12:53:54)  tkwiggins: I'm not drooling over Yeesha until she loses the tatoos.
(01/13 12:53:55)  Dave Mac: Nice one, Sifr.
(01/13 12:54:13)  Nis'ah: but then they can't get to where she is because of population caps
(01/13 12:54:16)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: we should all talk if we want and fall silent when we're tired of talking
(01/13 12:54:19)  sundog: the Bahro seem loud today !
(01/13 12:54:20)  Dave Mac: I just kind of wandered in.
(01/13 12:54:24)  Whilyam: The caps are Cyan's business
(01/13 12:54:25)  ireenquench: the most important thing is to just be in Cavern.. live this place... any groups I would want to be with would be inclusive to newcomers....just have faith.... and tell them where the good stuff is... be friendly , listen to what they are interested in... if they are interested in something else than you...even point them to groups you are not affiliated with
(01/13 12:54:26)  Butch: Modification of hte question: Do we need to do more to include unaligned and new Exploers in events?
(01/13 12:54:26)  Dave Mac: I didn't see it anywhere.
(01/13 12:54:27)  Sifr: i'm not drooling over her, i'm still scared Atrus will sit me down and give me a talk to have her in by midnight...
(01/13 12:54:35)  yogayoda: word of mouth
(01/13 12:54:43)  sundog: lol sifr
(01/13 12:54:45)  amonre: why unaligned?
(01/13 12:54:46)  Ruby O'Degee: there is already group called CAT that works with event  makers to ad their events.  Is it still online Ireen?
(01/13 12:54:50)  amonre: A lot of people are unaligned....
(01/13 12:54:51)  Dave Mac: Perhaps we could see meetings like this on Cyan's in cavern events calendar.
(01/13 12:55:06)  Nalates: In this case I found it by looking to see where everyone was. 40+ here.
(01/13 12:55:07)  Gilgameesh: we don't need to do anything apart of being helpful if asked for that
(01/13 12:55:12)  Butch: Unaligned because I do not know how many do or do not see themselves as part of a in cavern group
(01/13 12:55:13)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: no, butch, just talk to them, and don't be mean or act tired of them
(01/13 12:55:14)  ireenquench: yes... CAT still exists, but currently nothing is happening as far as I know
(01/13 12:55:15)  Dave Mac: Yes! It exists! but there's nothing on it.
(01/13 12:55:19)  Thend: Word of mouth is soo important here, especially now to generate and retain interest
(01/13 12:55:19)  Hitana: i think that would be good for a start, but some may be confused
(01/13 12:55:20)  Whilyam: Butch: No. This is something that should be fairly easy to someone as there are many helpful people who will help fill them in.
(01/13 12:55:33)  sundog: really (CAT) see I hadn't heard - but that kind of thing yes
(01/13 12:55:44)  yogayoda: announcements on the internet or in uru?
(01/13 12:55:50)  ireenquench: but the way I understand CAT we would aid anyone with events... even if it were only advice how to hold your own events
(01/13 12:55:53)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: I saw this meeting posted
(01/13 12:56:06)  Sifr: anyone know if the LODGE is still running?
(01/13 12:56:06)  sundog: I think there needs to be more in game communications
(01/13 12:56:07)  Hitana: exactly
(01/13 12:56:07)  Whilyam: Any announcements I think should be done first in game.
(01/13 12:56:09)  Butch: 5 minutes on the question of involving unaligned or new Explorers willing to participate in wommunity-wide events.
(01/13 12:56:10)  weeKIly Reporter: There needs to be a way to inform both in and out of game
(01/13 12:56:11)  pirschen43: In uru is best, remember the target player
(01/13 12:56:12)  Vortmax: I think too many of us assume everyone knows what we know.  We must remember that noto everyone knows about CAT, or the In Cavern Calendar, or the DRCLs, or any of that.  We must tell them.
(01/13 12:56:15)  Nalates: Does someone want to run a mailing list?
(01/13 12:56:17)  Ruby O'Degee: yes,it is a wonderful help  - the CAT group
(01/13 12:56:26)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: right, CAT is great
(01/13 12:56:28)  Thend: I'd say in Uru, yoga, especially due to the fact that we need people DOWN HERE, as opposed to on the boards the surface 
(01/13 12:56:29)  Whilyam: Cyan needs to help with that, Vort
(01/13 12:56:35)  Gilgameesh: agree vortmax
(01/13 12:56:36)  ireenquench: anyone can conatct me for example if you want advice how to organize In Game events.... I am experience with this... so I am willing to share expertise
(01/13 12:56:36)  Valdez: so have we come to a conclusion?
(01/13 12:56:38)  amonre: someone who never visits any sites... should still be up-to-date what is happening
(01/13 12:56:54)  tkwiggins: Word of mouth is important, but time intensive and spotty to conact new people in-game. In-game sources of *posted* info would help.
(01/13 12:56:55)  Vortmax: Exactly, amon.
(01/13 12:56:55) Thend nods his head
(01/13 12:57:04)  Eleri: The forums shoult be the second line of information spreading.
(01/13 12:57:06)  Nalates: Getting CAT on the beginners info on the viewer here would help
(01/13 12:57:07)  Valdez: when Eder Delin opens I might throw a party
(01/13 12:57:09)  Gilgameesh: don't forget that it's really easy to exploit indavertently the game for newcomers
(01/13 12:57:09)  Hitana: but of course there is no real need because ppl are always helpful
(01/13 12:57:09)  Butch: 4 minutes on the question of involving unaligned and new Explorers in community-wide events
(01/13 12:57:14)  amonre: which I consider part of the DRCL's job, but that's for later ;)
(01/13 12:57:19)  Butch: make make 3
(01/13 12:57:24)  weeKIly Reporter: There should be an events listing that can be controled site-wise and also be seen ingame-wise
(01/13 12:57:32)  Vortmax: I'd love to see more info on the classroom imagers
(01/13 12:57:33)  Hitana: and the CAT is really good!
(01/13 12:57:36)  Eleri: ask for, and involve volunteers
(01/13 12:57:41)  tkwiggins: 2nd Vort's idea
(01/13 12:57:51)  weeKIly Reporter: Heh :P
(01/13 12:57:51)  Dave Mac: Stupid question: CAT?
(01/13 12:58:00)  Vortmax: Cavern Activities Team
(01/13 12:58:01)  amonre: Vort, I agree... the classroom is a bit empty too
(01/13 12:58:03)  Dave Mac: Thanks.
(01/13 12:58:08)  Ruby O'Degee: Cavern Actvities Tedam
(01/13 12:58:09)  Dave Mac: Never heard of them.
(01/13 12:58:10)  Bear: Not stupid. what is CAT?
(01/13 12:58:11)  Hitana: right vort!
(01/13 12:58:11)  Ruby O'Degee: team
(01/13 12:58:17)  Bear: Thanks.
(01/13 12:58:18)  yogayoda: who might be a part of this cat?
(01/13 12:58:18)  Vortmax: They set up various activities in the Cavern
(01/13 12:58:19)  Sifr: yeah, i think word of mouth might be better than posting it up... its about exploration... you don't want to be told something that ruins the surprise of finding something? (tries to figure if this is relevant)
(01/13 12:58:27)  amonre: cavern activities tadaam
(01/13 12:58:29)  Thend: The thing is, if there was more word of mout instead of pointing to forums, then the way information would spread here would begin to form its own casual but definite structure, we are just too used to the forums, etc
(01/13 12:58:30)  Sifr: i mean, hints are fine...
(01/13 12:58:43)  Hitana: yes no spoilers please!
(01/13 12:58:44)  ireenquench: I think new explorers might just want to test waters.... but they can only do so if we start living in this place and offer what we can (besides cyan) so i suggest starting events... inviting people... invent new stuff... and good ideas will be welcomed and stick
(01/13 12:58:52) sundog waves
(01/13 12:58:52)  jimmyleg: i agree, thend
(01/13 12:58:59) Thend nods his head
(01/13 12:59:01)  Vortmax: Agreed ireen
(01/13 12:59:05)  yogayoda: yes
(01/13 12:59:07)  tkwiggins: Word of mouth is great but tends to go to ppl who are into social connections. Posting in-game would cover the solo-tending players.
(01/13 12:59:09)  Butch: 1 minute on the question of how to involve new and unaligned exploeres in community wide evet6ns
(01/13 12:59:09) Ghaelen D'Lareh agrees
(01/13 12:59:11)  Eleri: or have a way groups can get news on the classroom imagers so everyone can see that
(01/13 12:59:12)  Hitana: a welcome the new explorers event? good idea!
(01/13 12:59:26)  Butch: TIME
(01/13 12:59:34)  Thend: Yes, sounds good to me too Hitana
(01/13 12:59:37)  Vortmax: So basically, we need to spread the word both by mouth and in some way posted in the Cavern.
(01/13 12:59:40)  ireenquench: Well hoods can post suff on their images, lets make use of that
(01/13 12:59:55)  Butch: The next section is on Playing Roles: IC and OOC play
(01/13 12:59:56)  amonre: exactly ireen
(01/13 12:59:58)  Hitana: mouth to mouth thats it!
(01/13 13:00:04)  Thend: lol
(01/13 13:00:07)  Hitana: whats IC and OOC?
(01/13 13:00:09)  Dave Mac: Where did Dr. A. go?
(01/13 13:00:11)  Dr. August: WeeKIly Reporter, I will have to reschedule the interview. Something's come up. I'm sorry I can't stay. I should be in later or tomorrow.
(01/13 13:00:13)  Ruby O'Degee: Yes, I agree eleri, the classrrom imager should advertise the events listed on the MOUL site
(01/13 13:00:15)  sundog: yea !
(01/13 13:00:16) Hitana blushes
(01/13 13:00:18)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: we do that, Ireen, but when the hood goes private...... hard for new people to come and see
(01/13 13:00:19)  Butch: IC is In Cavern, playing as if you are a character
(01/13 13:00:19)  Dr. August (I'm on the surface, be back in a minute):  
(01/13 13:00:22)  weeKIly Reporter: Ok thats fine
(01/13 13:00:30)  Vortmax: Simple definitions:  IC - In Cavern.  You play as yourself, but as if all of this were real.
(01/13 13:00:35)  Butch: OOC is out of Cavern, playing as if this was a game and nothing else.
(01/13 13:00:35)  amonre: IC = In Cavern, meanign that you treat everything as real, and not a game (you're not playing a game)
(01/13 13:00:36)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: events across all hoods in the classroom imager... that's the way to advertise them
(01/13 13:00:49)  amonre: OOC = you treat everything as a game, Uru is a game by Cyan, and the DRC isn't real either
(01/13 13:00:51)  Butch: DRCL did post a standards document on the topic on the forums.
(01/13 13:00:58)  Butch: First question of 2.
(01/13 13:01:02) Whilyam nods his head
(01/13 13:01:03)  ireenquench: RP = if you treat this as real but are not entirrely yourself
(01/13 13:01:04)  Hitana: lol welll....
(01/13 13:01:06)  amonre: yeah, I do recommend reading that article
(01/13 13:01:07)  Vortmax: Further definition:  RP - Role Playing - playing a character who is not yourself.
(01/13 13:01:18)  amonre: (IC is close to RP)
(01/13 13:01:20)  Hitana: k thx
(01/13 13:01:30) ireenquench disagress with amonre
(01/13 13:01:31)  Butch: How should we balance the desire of individuals and groups to play the game differnt ways, given the way we interact with the cavern.
(01/13 13:01:39)  Whilyam: Respect
(01/13 13:01:42)  Vortmax: Simple.  Be respectful of all play styles.
(01/13 13:01:46)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: maybe the events that are approved to go up on the event's board, Migo
(01/13 13:01:47)  ireenquench: Respect.
(01/13 13:01:48)  Hitana: yes!
(01/13 13:01:49)  Butch: And yes, I forgot to include RP.
(01/13 13:01:54)  Dave Mac: R-E-S-P-E-C-T!
(01/13 13:01:56)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: yes, respect
(01/13 13:01:58)  Hitana: lol
(01/13 13:01:59)  Sifr: agree completely
(01/13 13:01:59)  Vortmax: And that's from ALL SIDES.
(01/13 13:02:04)  Whilyam: Indeed.
(01/13 13:02:09) amonre agrees
(01/13 13:02:09)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: for everyone, both ways, all perspectives
(01/13 13:02:13)  yogayoda: sock it to me
(01/13 13:02:14)  Nalates: Wow! We agree on something.
(01/13 13:02:16)  Dave Mac: I haven't noticed a big issue with that one.
(01/13 13:02:21)  ireenquench: Willingness to accept others peferred play style in cavern and on the forums
(01/13 13:02:22)  Gadren: and probably most importantly...dont' be rude to people and try to cover it up with ICness or saying "why are you taking me so seriously?  it's just a game!"
(01/13 13:02:22)  weeKIly Reporter: That was a quick and decisive answer
(01/13 13:02:24)  Hitana: you do we have to choose again for IC OE OCC?
(01/13 13:02:24)  Sifr: i suppose we already do that... we accept the DRC even if we're not playing strictly IC
(01/13 13:02:28)  Whalyn: I have, Dave.
(01/13 13:02:34)  Hitana: or
(01/13 13:02:36)  Thend: We switch back and forth, as many of us have always done, though with perhaps bringing things together with an In-Cavern perspective, no matter the subject involved
(01/13 13:02:37)  Whilyam: This should go beyond IC OOC to all areas. Be respectful.
(01/13 13:02:38)  Butch: The question is HOW should we balance the desire of individuals and groups to want to play given IC, OOC, and RP styles
(01/13 13:02:43)  Vortmax: And you don't have to choose either. I go back and forth between IC and OOC
(01/13 13:02:47)  Eleri: heck, just be respectful. Too many examples of people forgetting how to treat others with human dignity
(01/13 13:02:51)  Hitana: me too
(01/13 13:02:52)  Whilyam: Butch: Respect.
(01/13 13:02:52)  tkwiggins: We gotta, Sifr, or Kodama will kill us!  :)
(01/13 13:03:02)  Whilyam: That is how.
(01/13 13:03:05)  Sifr: hehe too true! he scares me :p
(01/13 13:03:05)  Dave Mac: I think most people kind of go back and forth.
(01/13 13:03:08)  Butch: But what is respect in this matter?
(01/13 13:03:15)  amonre: I think we're doing just fine now
(01/13 13:03:18)  Erik: Why is everyone here? :P
(01/13 13:03:33)  ireenquench: Willingness to step outside of your own play style just a little bit in emergency situations and especially with newcomers..... but also willingness to accept that another may not want to step out of theirs
(01/13 13:03:37)  Gilgameesh: sorry i gtg, shora
(01/13 13:03:38)  Butch: I believe we are organzied around trust, consensus and respect, but how do we ACT on that?
(01/13 13:03:38)  Dave Mac: We're just having a little discussion, Erik.
(01/13 13:03:39) Thend nods his head
(01/13 13:03:40)  yogayoda: cross the two types more
(01/13 13:03:44)  Ward: WHY IS IT SUCH BUSSY HERE?
(01/13 13:03:51)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: and don't go around correcting IC/OOC statements
(01/13 13:03:55)  weeKIly Reporter: We should respect others right to nplay a game they pay for on a monthly basis they way they want to :)
(01/13 13:03:59)  Ruby O'Degee: If we support one another without being competitive or jealous bunches of stuff would get done around here
(01/13 13:04:20)  Erik: What is this meeting about?
(01/13 13:04:22)  Eleri: in this? Speaking with courtesy. Keeping the insults out of it. Being basically polite
(01/13 13:04:23)  Hitana: there should be someone saying: you think this is real?! are you crazy!?
(01/13 13:04:24)  amonre: Don't try to be IC in an OOC chat, or OOC in an IC chat, etc
(01/13 13:04:24)  Butch: 5 mintues on the question of how to blanace the desire of groups to play IC, OCC and RP styles.
(01/13 13:04:32)  Hitana: shouldn't i meant
(01/13 13:04:38)  Gadren: shout I think most people are find...but the DRC forums have been filled with arguments and debates about the Laiisons that aren't just IC play -- they are direct insults and attacks on us in real life...CAGrayWolf didn't resign for story reasons -- it was because he (and we) was truly stressed
(01/13 13:04:47)  amonre: why do you think IC and RP are so differnet, ireen?
(01/13 13:04:48)  Thend: Gently encourage immersion, as this is not the surface, but be open to all types of people/discussion
(01/13 13:04:49)  Sifr: I personally like to play with the 5th wall, accepting that the me in the cavern is not real, in a world that accepts the cavern is real, and not being so sure that me playing the game is that real either... :p
(01/13 13:04:52)  Whilyam: Simple, Butch. We DON'T act on this. We are respectful of all.
(01/13 13:05:14)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: and if someone steps out of IC or OOC (in your opinion) leave it alone
(01/13 13:05:16)  Hitana: and on the other side ppl shouldn't try to make realistic ones believe it is real
(01/13 13:05:21)  Vortmax: Dont force your playing style on anyone else either.
(01/13 13:05:23)  ireenquench: I would also like to ask that the term IC Nazis is not used anymore, I find it extremely derogatory and hurtfull and I (as an IC player) do not wish to be put in that box.... IC player OOC plyers , RP players may be different within their own play styles, each player has an individual perspective, labeling is not good
(01/13 13:05:23)  tkwiggins: The players come from all walks of society -- I think we can expect to see roughly similar levels of respect, or lack of it, that you see in RL.
(01/13 13:05:25)  Valdez: and don't make judgements on other people's voices in voice chat, like me, I have been insuted gefore
(01/13 13:05:28)  pirschen43: Right now there's no easy means for a new player to find out that IC/OOC even exist... maybe have an OOC Orientation (to complement the existin gResEng IC oreientations) where stuff like that can be covered
(01/13 13:05:29)  Whilyam: I remember a topic "Another WIERDO in the cavern!" That was unacceptable.
(01/13 13:05:36)  amonre: ireen, definitely
(01/13 13:05:43) amonre agrees completely
(01/13 13:05:45)  Hitana: if you like to see that it is real...okay, if not okay! :)
(01/13 13:05:55)  Butch: 4 mintues on the question of How to balance the desire of individuals and groups to play in IC, OOC and RP styles.
(01/13 13:06:21)  Nalates: When I first came into Uru (04) I found the IC really confusing. Uru was my forst MMO
(01/13 13:06:25)  weeKIly Reporter: i think the "desires" of those playing IC OOC and RP are that of the same
(01/13 13:06:28)  Eleri: If IC is happening near you, and you don't like it, move yourself. Same thing for OOC.
(01/13 13:06:39) ireenquench nods her head
(01/13 13:06:44) Sifr nods his head
(01/13 13:06:49) Hitana nods her head
(01/13 13:06:51)  Whilyam: And with new players. If they seem confused about IC, pm them explaining it.
(01/13 13:06:55)  Vortmax: My biggest concern on this is with RPers who act as if their stories were official.  A simple statement somewhere that it's a fan-run story would clear up a lot of conflict.  It would probably even get more people involved.
(01/13 13:07:03)  Thend: And if IC or RP, respectfully, don't be too intrusive either
(01/13 13:07:05)  yogayoda: same here i had no idea what the cavern was really for
(01/13 13:07:06)  Eleri: If OOC is happening, and you want IC, go make IC happen somewhere else.
(01/13 13:07:07)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: and if you are concerned with the tone of someone's "voice" don't forget to listen to your own, too
(01/13 13:07:17)  Thend: i meant OOC or RP*
(01/13 13:07:18)  Eleri: same for the opposite.
(01/13 13:07:22)  jimmyleg: i agree, vort
(01/13 13:07:24)  Sifr: yeah vort, a lot of tapestry forums threw me off...
(01/13 13:07:29)  Hitana: agree!
(01/13 13:07:30) Ward is asking why we are all here.
(01/13 13:07:38)  jimmyleg: good poit, vort
(01/13 13:07:41)  Sifr: i was like... we can do that? oh no... no we can't... the lies! :p
(01/13 13:07:41)  Dave Mac: The problem, vort, is that stating that a story is unofficial is a very OOC thing to do.
(01/13 13:07:43)  Whilyam: An informal meeting, ward.
(01/13 13:07:45) Sifr laughs
(01/13 13:07:45)  Butch: 3 minutes on the question of BALANCE between IC OOC and RP styles
(01/13 13:07:54)  Hitana: lol
(01/13 13:07:58)  tkwiggins: I don't think it *can* be balanced, not effectively. Some ppl (most, I think) are sensistive to the play styles of others, other aren't. Trying to educate or convince the insensitive ones usually results in conflict.
(01/13 13:08:03)  Eleri: BUT, because this *is* meant to be a real place, expect IC to break out anywhere, any time.
(01/13 13:08:08)  ireenquench: as an example... the air sitters in the city.... they totally bug me.... but i would never tell them that... when I caht with them... I just turn my back and pretend they are staning behind me.... if their OOC  talk bugs me I leave, no big deal
(01/13 13:08:09)  Whilyam: BALANCE is achieved by basic respect as individuals.
(01/13 13:08:12)  Hitana: exactly!
(01/13 13:08:23)  Vortmax: Understood, Dave.  But it wouldn't hurt to step out of your character for a bit for that.  Just like I might step into character to play along with them.
(01/13 13:08:33)  Erik: people shouldn't force others to be IC or OOC
(01/13 13:08:33)  Dave Mac: I'm with ireen on the flying people on the landing.
(01/13 13:08:35)  Butch: 2 mintues on the question of balance between IC OCC and RP styles of play in the community
(01/13 13:08:39)  Vortmax: I REALLY don't think it would hurt the story.
(01/13 13:08:47)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: right, Eleri, and OOC does as well, like when people are having technical trouble
(01/13 13:08:47)  Valdez: ok
(01/13 13:09:04)  Eleri: no one should be forced.
(01/13 13:09:08)  Butch: 1 minute on the question of balance between IC OOC and RP style in the community
(01/13 13:09:13)  Dave Mac: Technical trouble with Uru?! Say it ain't so!
(01/13 13:09:16)  Vortmax: Just like Dr. August stepped OOC several times here tonight :)
(01/13 13:09:21)  Vortmax: Err, today
(01/13 13:09:22)  Whilyam: First thing we basically agree on.
(01/13 13:09:23)  Nalates: How does anyone in D'ni force another to do something?
(01/13 13:09:27)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: lol@Dave
(01/13 13:09:32)  Sifr: yeah OOC for the newbies would be more helpful
(01/13 13:09:33) Thend finds that the subject of 'Cavern Gasses' affecting our minds/perceptions can explain a lot
(01/13 13:09:35)  Butch: TIME
(01/13 13:09:36)  Eleri: I think it's good to keep in mind that this is a story, though, so being in the story happens. And it is a game, so technical stuff happens
(01/13 13:09:42)  Whilyam: Words are our swords in D'ni.
(01/13 13:09:42)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: well, the relto book in the face is one way, Nalates
(01/13 13:09:57)  Hitana: lol
(01/13 13:09:58)  Butch: The next question is close to one we have already discussed
(01/13 13:09:59)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: what?
(01/13 13:10:01)  Vortmax: Heh, I think that was the best discussion yet :D
(01/13 13:10:05)  Dave Mac: Yeah, sorry about those Cavern Gasses, I had Taco Bell.
(01/13 13:10:07)  Hitana: yes?
(01/13 13:10:13)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: why use something as beautiful as words?
(01/13 13:10:14)  Whalyn: We've got somebody out there now practicing relto throwing at the fountain.
(01/13 13:10:14)  Whilyam: "Uru: We take the first S out of Swords."
(01/13 13:10:18)  Butch: So, if the groups wants me to pass on it, just say so.
(01/13 13:10:44)  Hitana: are we ready?
(01/13 13:10:44)  Thend: Groups?  What about the individuals?  lol
(01/13 13:10:48)  Butch: Wht changes do you want to see in how Explorers communite with one another the evetns of the IC game given the mix of IC, OOC and RP styles
(01/13 13:10:59)  amonre: none ;)
(01/13 13:11:09)  Thend: Nice, Whil
(01/13 13:11:09)  Eleri: there has been much gnashing of teeth
(01/13 13:11:22)  Sifr: has there?
(01/13 13:11:36)  Vortmax: I think that's done well now.  We can share that info as we see fit.
(01/13 13:11:38)  Dave Mac: I really haven't noticed any conflict in the matter.
(01/13 13:11:42)  Eleri: Nothing IC events should always be primarily presented in cavern as IC
(01/13 13:11:43)  Hitana: should there be rules of communication? now c'mon!
(01/13 13:11:44)  weeKIly Reporter: Neither have I
(01/13 13:11:45)  Whilyam: Me either.
(01/13 13:11:51)  ireenquench: I would like to see more tolerance, thats all
(01/13 13:11:52)  Vortmax: If you're OOC, take the IC terms OOC.
(01/13 13:12:00)  Hitana: okay i see
(01/13 13:12:08)  Sifr: you mean in the regards of the museum being opened accidentally and the "Oh bugger, we glitched" instead of it being part of the story?
(01/13 13:12:10)  Butch: The question is what changes does anyone want to see in communication of story events, not just DRC/DRCL but all evetns, given the mix of IC, OOC and RP styles
(01/13 13:12:11)  Vortmax: If you're RP, incorporate it into your story.
(01/13 13:12:14)  Dave Mac: Seriously, I've noticed no intolerance, unless you count the railing floaters.
(01/13 13:12:17)  Eleri: if people want to share that info however they want, that's fine, but the first wave of news should be IC
(01/13 13:12:20)  Thend: We simply say things In-Cavern, tell the stroy (if you are predesposed to this way of thinking) and let anyone listening translate it for themselves however they like
(01/13 13:12:27)  Whilyam: (Wow... IC/OOC isthe thing we're agreeing on... didn't think that'd happen a few months ago...)
(01/13 13:12:39)  Hitana: lol
(01/13 13:12:45)  Vortmax: No kidding Whil...
(01/13 13:12:50)  Hitana: exactly thend
(01/13 13:13:10)  Dave Mac: I think people are pretty flexible about IC/OOC issues.
(01/13 13:13:15)  Thend: it was never a problem for me, unless people got all pushy and intrusive about it
(01/13 13:13:18)  Vortmax: And don't be fraid to step OOC either to help explain things, even if it's just in PM
(01/13 13:13:26)  Whilyam: It all comes down to respect.
(01/13 13:13:33)  Hitana: yes
(01/13 13:13:39)  Sifr: like saying about Yeesha and my theories of her being evil and having a gingerbread house of terror... its IC/OOC, who knows?
(01/13 13:13:41) Thend nods his head
(01/13 13:13:42)  yogayoda: simply put
(01/13 13:13:49)  sundog: concerns have been raised as to how the "main story" is presented and by whom and as to the role of the explorers is affecting that or the presentations of "fan story lines"
(01/13 13:13:50)  Hitana: so no changes, just be sure there is respect
(01/13 13:14:00)  Gadren: so how many more minutes do we have left for us to agree with each other? ;)
(01/13 13:14:08)  Butch: the question is what changes would people like to see in the communication of story evetns given the mix of IC OOC and RP styles, 
(01/13 13:14:11)  Kam Uraki: In a few, Vald.
(01/13 13:14:11)  Butch: 5 minutes
(01/13 13:14:11)  ireenquench: The story is IC.... and it is so simple I see no reason to translate it.... but thats the perspective of an IC player so I would not know
(01/13 13:14:12)  Migo: we are family...
(01/13 13:14:17)  amonre: gadren: hey, we should agree while we can! :D
(01/13 13:14:19) amonre nods
(01/13 13:14:21) Migo cheers
(01/13 13:14:22)  Thend: Fn-storylines, frankly, can just be darn confusing, you don't know who you're talking to
(01/13 13:14:24)  Whilyam: Ah, one thing that should be raised is IC arguments going to OOC arguments. Like in Vegas, everything that is IC, stays IC.
(01/13 13:14:38)  Thend: lol
(01/13 13:14:41)  Sifr: i like that whil, that works
(01/13 13:14:47)  Hitana: well then the ppl have to explain it thend
(01/13 13:14:52) Thend nods his head
(01/13 13:14:53)  Sifr: people accept the world as it is... we'll get the backstory
(01/13 13:14:56)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: oh dear, let's not make Uru Vegas, either....
(01/13 13:15:03)  Whilyam: Las Uru?
(01/13 13:15:04)  amonre: What's Vegas?
(01/13 13:15:09)  tkwiggins: I think the #1 thing that would help sell the overarching story of the restoration of the cavern is for the DRC-ness of the DRC site to be revived. More like it was in '03. A large online presence that really sells the Alternate Reality of the cavern.
(01/13 13:15:09)  Hitana: lol ghaelen
(01/13 13:15:09)  Vortmax: Ward, we're kinda busy right now.
(01/13 13:15:13)  Nalates: May be a Vagas age?
(01/13 13:15:14)  Butch: I have been in IC events where characters HATED eachother, but players were working very closely.
(01/13 13:15:14)  Migo: if I go OOC and some one doesn't like it,...please tell me
(01/13 13:15:23)  Dave Mac: It's just down the road.  Now if only I could find that darn shaft..
(01/13 13:15:28)  Sifr: i mean, watch Pirates of the Caribbean, you accept their are Undead pirates... who needs that explaining? (odd example i know)
(01/13 13:15:31)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: that's just it, Migo, no one should tell you
(01/13 13:15:42)  ireenquench: Butch, to me you are describing Roleplay, not IC
(01/13 13:15:49)  Migo: I don't want to offend....
(01/13 13:15:51)  Vortmax: Sifr:  Willful suspension of disbelief.  It's a great thing. :D
(01/13 13:15:54)  Thend: i agree tk, as an extension of the 'game', not just another forum
(01/13 13:15:58)  Sifr: exactly!
(01/13 13:16:00)  amonre: yes, that's RP
(01/13 13:16:03)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: but with tolerance, Migo, no one would be offended
(01/13 13:16:03)  amonre: Dr. August is RP too
(01/13 13:16:06)  tkwiggins: The more IC and RP that comes from *outside* the explorer community (i.e. Cyan), the greater the suspension of disbelief in-cavern.
(01/13 13:16:15)  sundog: but I imagine it can be confusing for new explorers
(01/13 13:16:15)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: that's the whole point of "tolerance"
(01/13 13:16:18)  Whilyam: It is RP if it is a position the person wouldn't normally take.
(01/13 13:16:20)  Hitana: exactly tk
(01/13 13:16:27)  Hitana: yes sun!
(01/13 13:16:32)  Butch: 3 minutes on the question of changes in communication given the differences in OOC IC and RP styles.
(01/13 13:16:33)  Panther (I'm on the surface, be back in a minute):  
(01/13 13:16:40)  Dave Mac: Unfortunately, Dr. August had to leave right when we got to this topic.
(01/13 13:16:47) Whilyam starts to laugh
(01/13 13:16:54)  weeKIly Reporter: Coneinent eh? :P
(01/13 13:16:58)  Whilyam: Respect.
(01/13 13:17:00)  Thend: Problem is, we have been, and still are to a degree, sorely lacking in the 'official' storyline department
(01/13 13:17:01)  weeKIly Reporter: Conveient*
(01/13 13:17:05)  Whilyam: That's all that's needed.
(01/13 13:17:16)  Migo: Reporter, you got those notes for the next article?
(01/13 13:17:29)  Dave Mac: Well, he did make some OOC coments earlier, I think he really did have something on the surface to do.
(01/13 13:17:29)  Hitana: right, thend!
(01/13 13:17:29)  Butch: but how sould people be communicating their fac-IC or fan-RP storylines?
(01/13 13:17:29)  Vortmax: Look, here's my best suggestion on this.  Be willing to step into a different type of play to share information as needed.  Or at least point someone in the right direction to get help, if you can't do that.
(01/13 13:17:31)  weeKIly Reporter: Notes?
(01/13 13:17:35)  Sifr: yeah we have Thend, we've gotten characters, but where's the story gluing it together?
(01/13 13:17:40)  Eleri: Anyone doing RP, really needs to do it with respect for Cyan's story, and be ready for them to step in and cut off fan-run story if it starts conflicting with 'canon'
(01/13 13:17:47)  Thend: Yep, Vort.  It's simple
(01/13 13:17:48)  ireenquench: the only thng that confuses peiple is confusing DRC with Cyan or Cate and Cyan
(01/13 13:17:50)  tkwiggins: Amen to Eleri's point.
(01/13 13:17:59)  Hitana: yes!
(01/13 13:17:59)  amonre: (totally OOC: can you increase the chat space at the top?)
(01/13 13:18:00)  sundog: OK
(01/13 13:18:07)  Whilyam: I urge passive IC/RP fan storylines.
(01/13 13:18:12)  Kam Uraki: By the way, there will be a test on all of this later ;P
(01/13 13:18:15)  Vortmax: amon:  Only by making the text smaller in your KI
(01/13 13:18:19)  Butch: 2 minutes on the question of what chagnes to Explorer communcation do you want to see given the mix of IC OOC and RP styles.
(01/13 13:18:20)  sundog: ha !
(01/13 13:18:27)  Thend: Nooo!  I haven't been paying attention  
(01/13 13:18:31)  Hitana: lol
(01/13 13:18:40)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: I think when a "canon" storyline change appears, people run there anyway
(01/13 13:18:48)  amonre: thanks
(01/13 13:18:50)  Butch: I hope not Kam.
(01/13 13:18:50)  Hitana: right!
(01/13 13:19:04)  Eleri: most of the roleplay news hs been handled well, already. People see the event in cavern, and carry the tale
(01/13 13:19:10)  Migo: we participate to the extent that we can
(01/13 13:19:13)  Butch: 2 mintues on the question of changes in communcation of game events given the mix of RP IC and OOC play styles
(01/13 13:19:23)  tkwiggins: I'd encourage the liaisons to encourage the DRC to increase their chat among each other on the DRC board.
(01/13 13:19:31)  Eleri: that's just how witnessing an event on the surface works
(01/13 13:19:40)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: yes, Eleri, and this event is one of those that will be carried on to explorers who couldn't be here
(01/13 13:19:41)  Thend: Yes, tk, I agree 
(01/13 13:19:45)  Dave Mac: I'd encourage the DRC to update their dang website.
(01/13 13:19:50)  Vortmax: Good idea tk
(01/13 13:19:56)  ireenquench: Cyan desings the charactera, DRC, Cate, Wheely Yeesha, and any other whacko that should come along.... it is most important not to confuse DRC with Cyan and people have repeatedly done that, especially surrounding anythign DRCL related
(01/13 13:19:57)  Butch: 1 minute on the question of chagnes in explorer communication given the mix of IC OOC and RP play styles.
(01/13 13:19:57)  Mystlander: I'm recording a full chatlog of this meeting, Sis... Howdy!
(01/13 13:19:57)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: but if Cate showed up.....THAT would become the real story
(01/13 13:20:05)  amonre: dave mac: well... (OOC) cyan is very busy, which is why their site hasn't been updated a lot
(01/13 13:20:05)  Eleri: DRC nag request noted ;)
(01/13 13:20:05)  Vortmax: Dave, they're working on it............. (we've heard that before...)
(01/13 13:20:09)  tkwiggins: Not for the news or information flow of it, but to sell the ARG
(01/13 13:20:13)  Butch: TIME
(01/13 13:20:14)  Panther (I'm on the surface, be back in a minute):  
(01/13 13:20:19)  Thend: And wipe the whole site from the ground up so we and the new explorers can start fresh  
(01/13 13:20:23)  ireenquench: In my pinion the majorit of confusion stems from that
(01/13 13:20:26)  weeKIly Reporter: Everyone seems to always treat the DRC and story in a IC way as apposed to hey you live actor whats going to goiming up soon
(01/13 13:20:32)  Butch: The next section kind of scares me right now.
(01/13 13:20:37)  Butch: DRCL
(01/13 13:20:39)  Eleri: ohnoes
(01/13 13:20:39)  Hitana: lol
(01/13 13:20:43) ireenquench laughs
(01/13 13:20:44)  amonre: heh, yeah ;)
(01/13 13:20:49)  Vortmax: Forge ahead.
(01/13 13:20:59)  yogayoda: what out
(01/13 13:20:59) Gadren gulps
(01/13 13:20:59)  amonre: I've just received message from Zardoz saying he has resigned as an UD
(01/13 13:21:03)  Butch: Again, I said I did not want to discuss the termination or shortening of DRCL
(01/13 13:21:03)  Dave Mac: Yes, Thend. I just joined a few weeks ago, and I was really disappointed when I found the DRC site to be so totally lame.
(01/13 13:21:03)  Migo: yikes
(01/13 13:21:08) Sifr gets himself some riot gear
(01/13 13:21:08)  Hitana: btw what means the L?
(01/13 13:21:12)  Thend: What's a UD?
(01/13 13:21:14)  amonre: DRC Liaison
(01/13 13:21:15)  Eleri: the DRCLs continue to discuss what our course of action is.
(01/13 13:21:17) Kam Uraki breaks out the riot gear
(01/13 13:21:18)  Vortmax: We can take it for 10 minutes :D
(01/13 13:21:18) Ghaelen D'Lareh watches the liaisons brace themselves
(01/13 13:21:26)  amonre: UD = unofficial dictator, which is the one who makes the rules and runs the elections
(01/13 13:21:28) weeKIly Reporter 's tummy grumbels for he has not eaten breakfats nor lunch
(01/13 13:21:29)  amonre: and that's me now ;)
(01/13 13:21:31)  Thend: Ah
(01/13 13:21:35)  Eleri: beyond that *shrug*
(01/13 13:21:35)  Thend: O.o
(01/13 13:21:42)  Butch: The question is How can we better organize Explorers to vote at the end of the current term?
(01/13 13:21:45) Hitana don't know much about liasion
(01/13 13:21:46)  Vortmax: DRCL = DRC Liaisons.  Ideally, they '***** information between you and the DRC
(01/13 13:21:52)  pirschen43: New explorers don't really even have a way to know that the DRCLs even exist
(01/13 13:21:54)  Mystlander: You're welcome... :)
(01/13 13:21:55)  Whilyam: There needs to be announcements and directions given on all forums, in game, and primarily BY CYAN. Maybe even a newsletter saying such to all explorers.
(01/13 13:21:55)  Vortmax: *pass
(01/13 13:22:02)  Nis'ah: by putting it on the MOUL site
(01/13 13:22:02)  amonre: firstly... have a job description... and then people will want to vote
(01/13 13:22:02)  pirschen43: It took me a long time beofore i even heard of them
(01/13 13:22:04)  Sifr: i think we could be told when, how, what they are?
(01/13 13:22:08)  Whilyam: Cyan/DRC
(01/13 13:22:17)  weeKIly Reporter: They could have they're own bevin? that help some...
(01/13 13:22:18)  Eleri: Ireen did a great job of spreading the word about the last elections. 
(01/13 13:22:25)  ireenquench: Butch, I posted on a zillion sites.... about the election .... so that is not the issue
(01/13 13:22:27)  Thend: In-Cavern, with a potential for also VOTING In-Cavern, as well
(01/13 13:22:32)  amonre: I can't stress enough on the job description... if the DRC doesn't give one, then the community should come up with their own
(01/13 13:22:33)  Dave Mac: You could make sure everyone knows what the DRCLs are/do.  Make sure they know about the elections.  I think information about the whole process is lacking.
(01/13 13:22:37)  tkwiggins: Agree w/Whil on need for DRC (Cyan) to be proactive in urging explorers vote
(01/13 13:22:40)  Sifr: we have meetings? we have liasons? we have liasons at meetings? we have elections? we have elections at meetings? we have elections at meetings for liasons?
(01/13 13:22:44)  Vortmax: Get some information up in-game about them.  PUt it on imagers, get it mentioned in the orientation meetings
(01/13 13:22:45)  Sifr: the newbie cries of terror...
(01/13 13:22:48)  Dave Mac: Also, a get out the vote campaign.  Rock the Vote: Cavern style.
(01/13 13:22:52)  weeKIly Reporter: How about mentioning them in Orrentations like the GoG
(01/13 13:22:53)  amonre: Thend: I've talked about in-game voting to cyan, but they're way too busy to be able to do that
(01/13 13:22:59)  ireenquench: I believe the DRC should appoint the Liaisons and come forward with a job definition
(01/13 13:23:04)  Whilyam: Cyan needsto get out information. No two ways about it.
(01/13 13:23:10)  Dave Mac: Perhaps a debate.
(01/13 13:23:11)  tkwiggins: Pix of candidates on images if possible
(01/13 13:23:12)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: I agree Ireen
(01/13 13:23:14)  Whilyam: ireen can only do so much.
(01/13 13:23:17)  Dave Mac: Televised if possible.
(01/13 13:23:20)  Ruby O'Degee: I agree Ireen
(01/13 13:23:22)  sundog: vote by heek game ?
(01/13 13:23:25) Eleri wants to note that the DRCLs have been trying to get some of these details worked on for 9 months now. 
(01/13 13:23:25)  Butch: the question is how can we better organize Explorers to vote in the election at the endo fo this term.
(01/13 13:23:26)  Dave Mac: Yes!
(01/13 13:23:29)  Sifr: televised! haha
(01/13 13:23:36)  Butch: Less than 300 people voted in last election.
(01/13 13:23:37)  Whilyam: I disagree. The Liaisons need to have explorers behind them too
(01/13 13:23:40)  Vortmax: yes, ireen did fantastic work getting all the forums covered, and several discussed it in game.
(01/13 13:23:44) Ghaelen D'Lareh feels for the liaisons
(01/13 13:23:44)  Eleri: as Teryn said to me "It;s a two way street, and the DRC forgot their lane"
(01/13 13:23:46) Hitana sitl does not understand that liasion thing
(01/13 13:23:46)  Thend: too bad, amonre.  And I think Zardoz was just doing the best he could with what was available, did a fine job IMO
(01/13 13:23:47)  Dave Mac: Heek tourney and feats of strength!
(01/13 13:23:47)  Whilyam: Otherwise they ARE just puppets of the DRC.
(01/13 13:23:50)  Nis'ah: if the liaison's role is to further the story line then the DRC should appoint them
(01/13 13:24:02)  ireenquench: Currently, they are not doing that so I think the DRCLs should all resign and we should demonstrate for the DRC to come forward with definitions and guildelines
(01/13 13:24:04)  tkwiggins: lol @ Teryn's quote!
(01/13 13:24:10)  amonre: is the site usable enough, you think?
(01/13 13:24:13)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: lol@Ireen
(01/13 13:24:17)  amonre: Is it easy to use, easy to find, ... ?
(01/13 13:24:18)  pirschen43: remember that themajority of players of MOUL never played UU and don't know DRCLs exist
(01/13 13:24:18)  Butch: Nis'ah, to you really want to be spoonfed your community organization?
(01/13 13:24:20)  Vortmax: ireen, but it's all in the explorers' hands.
(01/13 13:24:41)  tkwiggins: Respectfully disagree that DRCLs should resign
(01/13 13:24:53)  Vortmax: We must take control.  We asked for representation for how long, and we finally got it.
(01/13 13:24:55)  tkwiggins: Would send a different message than intended to the DRC
(01/13 13:24:55)  amonre: considering UL is, uh, "live" now... encouraging people to vote in the game is going to be easier
(01/13 13:24:58)  Matthew Allen: I agree with Ireen, a statement needs to be made to Cyan/DRC that if they want to keep us happy, then they should do more than just say "set up some DRCLs" then disappear
(01/13 13:24:58)  Hitana: i want to say something, but can't because of not understanding lol
(01/13 13:25:05)  weeKIly Reporter: i think it's a good idea it's be executed badly
(01/13 13:25:15)  Whilyam: I agree wiht Matthew
(01/13 13:25:19)  Whilyam: with*
(01/13 13:25:33)  Sifr: yeah it has, GrayWolf's already resigned cause its been stressful for him :(
(01/13 13:25:38)  Thend: Vault wipe for DRCsite, and as for the Liaison job description, perhaps stop waiting for word from aboe and be only pro-active, it may be that's what Cyan wanted in the first place, or thought might happen
(01/13 13:25:39)  ireenquench: if Cyan isnt willin gto do more about this... we should refuse to play this flawed game that is more hurtful than helpful
(01/13 13:25:40)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: but if the liaisons are now DRCLiaisons, they are already doing the work FOR the DRC.  What is the difference if the DRC just increase their own numbers by appointing "official" liaisons?
(01/13 13:25:44)  Butch: 5 minutes on the question of how to organzie the Explorers for the vote at the end of hte current term.
(01/13 13:25:45)  Erik (I'm on the surface, be back in a minute):  
(01/13 13:26:02)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: at least if they were official, they would know what their jobs were
(01/13 13:26:12)  amonre: yeah, we are a bit offtopic ;)
(01/13 13:26:15)  Panther: i went into the egg room and i couldent controll my self for 20 minuts.
(01/13 13:26:17)  Dave Mac: I've figured out what's going on by spending a lot of time reading forum posts, but I think most new people are going to be incredibly confused about the whole DRC thing and even more confused when we throw in the Liasons.
(01/13 13:26:17)  Thend: Between the DRC and the explorers, in my estimation, Ghaelen
(01/13 13:26:22)  Leonor: I thought the liasons job was just to spread the word
(01/13 13:26:23)  sundog: isnt this question kinda anti-thetical as covered in the original question on in-game organizations - in that they exist for their services and explorers can choose or not choose to take part
(01/13 13:26:25)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: keeping them in the dark just ties their hands too much
(01/13 13:26:41)  ireenquench: other than that, since all of that is probably not going to happen.... we shul not hol another election unless a definition of the Liaisons duties is written down and part of the election rules
(01/13 13:26:42)  pirschen43: how to get explorers to vote? There needs to be stuff in cavern regarding the laisons.  Not just word of mouth or forums
(01/13 13:26:46)  Leonor: Because it's not practical for the DRC to meet with the public all the time
(01/13 13:26:49)  pirschen43: posters or something
(01/13 13:26:54) amonre agrees with ireen
(01/13 13:26:57)  Whalyn: Back to getting the vote out - can we use billboards like ones in the classroom to hold announcements and information on DRCLs?
(01/13 13:27:04)  Hitana: exactly! i agree with ireen
(01/13 13:27:06)  Sifr: lol, posters in the cavern might be fun :)
(01/13 13:27:11)  Vortmax: That's what I'd like to see.  I want things up in the Cavern.
(01/13 13:27:13)  Butch: 4 mintues on teh question of how to better organzie explorers for the election at the end of the term.
(01/13 13:27:21)  ireenquench: no election with out written text on DRCL duties and competences
(01/13 13:27:25)  tkwiggins: 2nd vort
(01/13 13:27:28)  Vortmax: Mentions in the orientation meetings.  Notices on the classroom imager.
(01/13 13:27:29)  Matthew Allen: I agree, I think the next vote should be boycotted unless Cyan or DRC give specific guidelines for the DRCLs and what Cyan/DRC is willing to do to work with them
(01/13 13:27:30)  Hitana: yes!
(01/13 13:27:30)  Thend: Maybe wait until the election can be brought fully In-Cavern, so as to include everybody, otherwise put a stop to elections
(01/13 13:27:31)  amonre: well... posters and stuff won't help much, if the liaisons don't know what their job is :)
(01/13 13:27:32) weeKIly Reporter imagins a poster thats "the DRC wants YOU!"
(01/13 13:27:32)  Migo: I agree Irene, are the liaisons representatives of explorers, or voices or the DRC?
(01/13 13:27:34)  pirschen43: don't worry about getting people to vote until they know that the group exists and what its point is
(01/13 13:27:45) Hitana thinks the chat is to fast
(01/13 13:27:49)  ireenquench: and since itmay take a long time to find a definition..... well then it will take time, i dont care
(01/13 13:27:50)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: good idea, Thend
(01/13 13:27:51)  Eleri: I think the failure of the last election was due to complete apathy, because the process had been so nasty. No one cared to get involved in conflict.
(01/13 13:27:52)  Butch: 2 mintues on the question of how to better organzie the explorers for the next DRCL election.
(01/13 13:27:52)  sundog: What I was wondering as well
(01/13 13:28:05) Butch agrees that the chat is way faster than everyone can read
(01/13 13:28:05)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: a voting machine like the heek table -- interactive
(01/13 13:28:07)  Vortmax: Hitana, there will be logs for later, and you can always comment on it on the forum.
(01/13 13:28:08)  ireenquench: since we apparently all have different definitions in pur heads
(01/13 13:28:09)  Ruby O'Degee: why hold elections for liasions/messengers if the story can ve delivered by anyone who sees it happen?
(01/13 13:28:17)  Hitana: thx vort
(01/13 13:28:19)  Nis'ah: better define their role in URU
(01/13 13:28:24)  amonre: ghaelen: that'd be cool, but cyan can't do anything like that at the moment...
(01/13 13:28:27)  Blade Lakem: And the DRC forums coninue to go up in flames, scaring more people away (I admit, I've been guilty of flames there myself)
(01/13 13:28:30)  Migo: Ruby, exactly
(01/13 13:28:35)  Leonor: Because the DRC rather meet with someone they know it's going to spread the story?
(01/13 13:28:41)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: no, amonre, but maybe in the future they could
(01/13 13:28:42)  Eleri: If the community wants elections for Liaisons, have the Unelected Dictator start from scratch, and make it work
(01/13 13:28:46)  tkwiggins: I think conflict in last election played a part in the apathy, but I think bigger reason was lack of publicity. The forums are too obscure for many players.
(01/13 13:28:48)  amonre: yes
(01/13 13:28:48)  Vortmax: Flat out, it's up to the community to define the role of the Liaisons.  The DRC doesn't want to do it, so it's in your hands.
(01/13 13:28:50)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: if liaisons continue to be part of the story
(01/13 13:28:53)  Dave Mac: DRC forums are freakin scary.
(01/13 13:29:00)  Thend: Just passing of information Ruby, from DRC to explorers, and Explorers to DRC (who seem to busy to follow anything here themselves)
(01/13 13:29:03)  Butch: 1 mintue on teh question of how to better organize the explorers for the next election.
(01/13 13:29:06)  Kam Uraki: Amen, Dave
(01/13 13:29:14)  sundog: any explorer should be allowed to stand
(01/13 13:29:25)  Whilyam: Liaisons also work the other way. They are needed.
(01/13 13:29:25)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: yeah, Dave, not much of that "respect" there
(01/13 13:29:27)  Vortmax: Yes, talk about it more in the Cavern.  That will make a serious improvement.
(01/13 13:29:31)  ireenquench: i dont even wanat Liaisons because the concept is flawed like it's beem done and I think the DRC shoul just get their behinds in Cavern, we wll spread allright
(01/13 13:29:31)  Sifr: but only if they are committed...
(01/13 13:29:35)  Leonor: Maybe voting could be done live, in this room
(01/13 13:29:38)  Ruby O'Degee: sort of like correspondents Thend?
(01/13 13:29:39) Panther points
(01/13 13:29:45)  Sifr: i mean, what if they leave and we don't see them?
(01/13 13:29:46)  Vortmax: And if we get the word out in Cavern, I think more people will show interest.
(01/13 13:29:47)  Leonor: People that want to vote for X candidate, all stand../
(01/13 13:29:50)  Whilyam: DRC forums need to be moderated properly.
(01/13 13:29:51)  Hitana: exactly!
(01/13 13:29:52)  Thend: Ghaelen, the Heek tables aren't used that much anyway, just convert them  lol
(01/13 13:29:55)  Butch: TIME
(01/13 13:30:00)  ireenquench: most people share information
(01/13 13:30:18)  amonre: leonor: 200+ people in one hood? that'll be fun :D
(01/13 13:30:20) Ghaelen D'Lareh nods and grins to Thend and says yeah!
(01/13 13:30:31)  Migo: The DRC are making their own story? I'm confused
(01/13 13:30:33)  Butch: The next question is focused on the Liaisons as an IC-Only group (Mixed is next)
(01/13 13:30:36)  Hitana: because everyone is asking: "something new?" lol
(01/13 13:30:46)  Thend: Yes, Ruby, buit for the DRC to receive concise info from us and goings-on here that they are too busy to pay attentuion to the way we do
(01/13 13:30:49)  Butch: What questions shoule we be asking candidates for DRCL assuming they are only IC?
(01/13 13:30:56)  Ruby O'Degee: right, they bring back information when they see it happen.  That is how I heard about Cate
(01/13 13:30:58)  tkwiggins: WHat Migo just said goes to the crux of all these issues.
(01/13 13:31:02)  tkwiggins: Confusion
(01/13 13:31:08) Panther laughs
(01/13 13:31:16)  Hitana: well they shoudn't be too personal i think
(01/13 13:31:16)  Dave Mac: I've got one! What is it that you do?
(01/13 13:31:16)  tkwiggins: Confusion over the foundation of the Dni Restoration 
(01/13 13:31:27)  Hitana: lol
(01/13 13:31:34)  Butch: The question is, assuming the DRCL are IC only, what should we be asking candidiates?
(01/13 13:31:43)  Matthew Allen: What questions should we ask candidates? How about "Are you not going to take no for an answer when the DRC don't talk to you?"
(01/13 13:31:44)  Migo: The DRC are an aside, so far , so beat me up now....
(01/13 13:31:52)  tkwiggins: No Migo it's right on
(01/13 13:31:59)  Hitana: lol matthew
(01/13 13:32:07)  Migo: They present what they want
(01/13 13:32:13)  Migo: we take it in or not
(01/13 13:32:16)  Vortmax: That's a tough one.  Really, we should be asking them about issues IC.  How would they want to work with the DRC.  What would they like out of the job.
(01/13 13:32:16) Panther points
(01/13 13:32:22)  Vortmax: Where they stand on various issues.
(01/13 13:32:24)  tkwiggins: A lot of these issues, though front-and-center for us enthusiasts, are wayyy to esoteric for new players to grok
(01/13 13:32:27)  ireenquench: assuming they are only IC I would ask; are you willing to serve the explorers or only thos people who want to spread information.... if the former is the case... how do you decide on what the explorers want... how can you even run for office with no definition of the job
(01/13 13:32:32)  Dave Mac: To the DRCLs: Pretend I'm Cate.  Can you justify for me your existance as a group?
(01/13 13:32:33)  Hitana: i agree with vort
(01/13 13:32:34)  Migo: if it works, the game grows, makes money....continues to live
(01/13 13:32:35)  Thend: Well, if the DRCL candidates are only IC, then it follows the question would be what about the rest who may not be
(01/13 13:32:49) Panther points
(01/13 13:32:52)  Blade Lakem: Dave: That's a tough one over all ;)
(01/13 13:32:56)  Hitana: right to ireen
(01/13 13:33:04)  Butch: The question is assuming Liaisons as an IC-only group, what should we be asking candidates for the position.
(01/13 13:33:05)  Dave Mac: I know, that's why I asked it ;)
(01/13 13:33:12)  Greypiffle F: I thought that the Liaisions were a focus group for the DRC to have a buffer between themselves and the comunity - sort of a larger group that could be aproached by the comunity in general.
(01/13 13:33:15) Panther points
(01/13 13:33:19)  Leonor: It's obviously and IC group
(01/13 13:33:25)  Vortmax: that's part of the idea Grey
(01/13 13:33:27)  Gadren: Dave: Right now, I don't tihnk I cam
(01/13 13:33:44)  Dave Mac: Good, an honest answer!
(01/13 13:33:46)  Vortmax: Someone who can be around more often than the DRC, sharing info and taking questions/concerns back.
(01/13 13:33:47)  amonre: the DRC is IC, so the liaisons should be IC too
(01/13 13:33:50)  tkwiggins: I've always thought the DRCLs straddled IC and OOC, leaning more IC however
(01/13 13:33:52)  Thend: ireen has good points, I'm just sold that IN THEORY the DRCL stuff is good, though in practice, because of the DRC/Cyan themselves, it hasn't reaally been so
(01/13 13:34:08)  Whilyam: Got to go. Shorah
(01/13 13:34:15)  Hitana: bye whil
(01/13 13:34:17)  Dave Mac: Shorah, Whil.
(01/13 13:34:18)  amonre: bye whil!
(01/13 13:34:21)  Matthew Allen: Agreed with Thend.. the DRCLs are meaningless without the support of the DRC, and so far that support has been minimal
(01/13 13:34:23)  Greypiffle F: bye will
(01/13 13:34:23)  Butch: the question is assuming a strict IC focus, what questions should we be asking candidates for Liaison?
(01/13 13:34:25)  Sifr: yeah, you hit the nail on the head there Thend
(01/13 13:34:25)  ireenquench: I think live story is much more exiting.... the TH meeting might have served for D'mala and may serve as an occasional event.... other than that the DRCLs shoul not be part of the story....aside from their existance
(01/13 13:34:35)  Sifr: the DRC are too distant
(01/13 13:34:36)  Gadren: and because of some explorers, I hate to say -- we get our hands slapped when we try to make ourselves useful
(01/13 13:34:46)  Vortmax: WHOEVER KEPS TRYING TO SHARE YOUR RELTO WITH ME, STOP IT.
(01/13 13:34:47)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: wow, butch, that's a long, drawn out issue
(01/13 13:34:52)  Sifr: how can we get liasons with anyone to liase with?
(01/13 13:34:58)  Whalyn: Vort, that's Panther.
(01/13 13:34:59)  Sifr: *without
(01/13 13:35:02)  Sifr: rather
(01/13 13:35:08)  Hitana: lol sifr
(01/13 13:35:09)  amonre: panther, please stop
(01/13 13:35:13)  Hitana: good point!
(01/13 13:35:18)  Vortmax: In regard to OOC players, it shouldn't be too hard to recast OOC concerns and questions in an IC light.
(01/13 13:35:21)  Migo: exactly, Sifr
(01/13 13:35:28) Ghaelen D'Lareh thinks it's time for Cyan to fix that Relto book problem
(01/13 13:35:33)  Butch: 5 minutes on the question assuming an IC focus what questions should we be asking candidates for Liaison?
(01/13 13:35:38)  ireenquench: if he repeats on doing it call a Reseng
(01/13 13:36:00)  Vortmax: I mean, on the part of the Liaisons.
(01/13 13:36:15)  Vortmax: They should be able to translate from IC to OOC and back.
(01/13 13:36:20)  Whalyn: Cut it out panather!!!!
(01/13 13:36:21)  Matthew Allen: How about we call a ResEng about coming over here anyway? I'd LOVE to hear what they have to say about DRCLs..
(01/13 13:36:24)  Migo: my question to the Liaison, how do you represent me?
(01/13 13:36:28)  tkwiggins: IMO the best way to cast DRCLs as very IC is to have the DRC appoint them. Though drawn form the player community, the DRCLs could then show up as new characters -- RPers, in essence.
(01/13 13:36:36)  Hitana: well something so that we know, what they want to do and so on...
(01/13 13:36:36)  Eleri: contacting reseng
(01/13 13:36:41)  tkwiggins: I might help reduce conflict...
(01/13 13:36:47)  Vortmax: Thanks Eleri
(01/13 13:37:06)  Hitana: i agree with tk
(01/13 13:37:08)  Nis'ah: yep I agree with tkwiggins
(01/13 13:37:20)  weeKIly Reporter: Sounds good
(01/13 13:37:20)  Butch: 3 minutes on t he question of what questions should we be asking candidates for DRCL assuming IC-only
(01/13 13:37:28)  Thend: One thing is the content, and the organizational structure with which that content is presented to the DRC, it may be that they might respond in kind with more thoughtful and deeper answers themselves.  However, I cannot comment on what or how things progress with tese matters, and especially don't want to speak/assume anything for or about the Liaisons, which I back
(01/13 13:37:35)  tkwiggins: It might also help diffuse the "power paranoia" issue....
(01/13 13:37:56)  Gadren: i agree...explorers voting for them simply implies representation, and then we become public servants who have to be chained to a vocal and destructive minority
(01/13 13:37:57) Sifr nods his head
(01/13 13:38:04)  Vortmax: Yeah, trust me, there's NO power in this job.  I kinda wish there was, so we could actually get the DRC to do some things...
(01/13 13:38:13)  Leonor: I don't understand all the complication around this. The Liasons only serve to spread messages from the DRC. The explorers should vote them, exactly because if the DRC appoints people, it would be an elite. People should vote in cavern, in this room, by standing. It would be simple to do. Events should get off the forums and come to the cavern.
(01/13 13:38:16)  Dave Mac: What you need more than power is access.
(01/13 13:38:18)  Butch: 2 mintues on the question of what questions should we be asking candidates for an IC-only DRCL
(01/13 13:38:23)  Migo: again, will the liaison, represent me, or funnel info from the DRC?
(01/13 13:38:33)  Hitana: right leonor!
(01/13 13:38:34)  Migo: won't vote till I know that
(01/13 13:38:36)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: yes, DAve, because access empowers
(01/13 13:38:36)  Thend: Leonor, from the DRC and TO the DRC
(01/13 13:38:45)  Leonor: Yes, Thend.
(01/13 13:38:46)  Sifr: so what you're saying, is the liasons should be able to get to Kirel and the DRC hoods so they can chat to someone if the need arises?
(01/13 13:38:47)  Vortmax: Migo:  That's up to the community to decide.
(01/13 13:38:50)  ireenquench: Well, since i feel very strongly about logs being published.... I would alk them if they would publish all logs of information put forward by "information holders" (edit out PMs received by other parties).... and maybe provide them with a delay of 10 days
(01/13 13:38:55)  pirschen43: Leonor, that doesn't scale, and requires everyone who wants to vote to be present at a specific time
(01/13 13:39:01)  Butch: 1 minute on the question of questions to ask IC-only DRCL.
(01/13 13:39:14)  Migo: ireen, agreed
(01/13 13:39:15)  Butch: candidates for DRCL, that is.
(01/13 13:39:16)  Hitana: good point ireen
(01/13 13:39:18)  tkwiggins: Having the DRCLs be known explorers has updisdes and downsides. One downside is they're vulnerable to grief from a small but highly vocal minority on the forums. 
(01/13 13:39:19)  Leonor: No it doesn'y pirschen
(01/13 13:39:27)  Dave Mac: Problem is, when the DRC comes to any public place, they get bumrushed, the DRCLs can get more information by meeting with the DRC in private.
(01/13 13:39:32)  Leonor: It could be done during a day, several times, one avatar, one vote
(01/13 13:39:40)  Thend: Any vote could easily be spread over a few days
(01/13 13:39:42)  Hitana: exactly dave
(01/13 13:39:49)  ireenquench: but Dave second hand information is totally boring
(01/13 13:39:53)  Migo: Is the liaison going to tell me what they think I should know, or what is up? altogether?
(01/13 13:39:54)  sundog: agreed= I (my opinion only) is that people are feeling excluded and that needs to change , through enabling participation - in the RW thats how people are empowered
(01/13 13:39:58)  Dave Mac: But then I could just make a new avvie every 5 minutes and vote all day long.
(01/13 13:39:59)  Hitana: lol ireen
(01/13 13:40:01)  Butch: TIME
(01/13 13:40:04)  tkwiggins: I'm not sure if what new explorers want is information per se... or a story experience that increases the immersion of the overall Uru story
(01/13 13:40:08)  pirschen43: it woul dnee dto be spread over a week or something, like a machine we go and vote at, not by sitting or standing in a group such as this
(01/13 13:40:10)  Dave Mac: Not if it's good information.
(01/13 13:40:12)  Vortmax: ireen, I don't know about you, but I'd rather have secondhand info than none at all
(01/13 13:40:21)  Dave Mac: Amen, vot.
(01/13 13:40:28)  Dave Mac: *vort
(01/13 13:40:33)  Hitana: right vort!
(01/13 13:40:38)  tkwiggins: I remember the secondhand info we all got in nov-dec '03 was very exciting
(01/13 13:40:39)  Leonor: You could do that in forums too Dave, I doubt many people will want to boycott
(01/13 13:40:40)  Thend: ireen, second hand info is the way of life and communication between people face-to-face
(01/13 13:40:41) Mystlander taps kami on shoulder and hands her a bowl of chilli...
(01/13 13:40:43)  ireenquench: if I get a log later I am happy
(01/13 13:40:45)  Butch: Next question: The DRCL have had to mix IC and OOC, so what questions should we be asking DRCL candidates for a mixed IC OOC role?
(01/13 13:40:49) Hitana has learned to live with second hand infos
(01/13 13:40:54)  tkwiggins: it was disseminated informally, second hand, heresay... the way you'd get the news in a small town
(01/13 13:40:54)  Dave Mac: I'm going to die of lag. I'm not sure how, but I bet it's fatal.
(01/13 13:41:07)  Thend: ireen is log-happy alright  lol
(01/13 13:41:10)  Matthew Allen: OOC: I don't think the DRC/Cyan are in a position to DICTATE TERMS on release of information, there will come a point where all of us are PAYING to be here, therefore WE should be dictating the information flow
(01/13 13:41:12)  Leonor: I don't understand the point of a mixed IC OOC role.
(01/13 13:41:14) Vortmax laughs at Dave
(01/13 13:41:31)  Migo: They either hand out the info, or not
(01/13 13:41:39)  Leonor: It's either IC and we deal with the DRC or OOC and we deal with Cyan
(01/13 13:41:46)  Vortmax: OOC would allow the Liaisons to interact with Cyan/GameTap as well as with the DRC/Cate
(01/13 13:41:49)  Migo: I get informed, or not
(01/13 13:41:50)  Butch: the question is, assuming that the DRCL are not going to stay IC, but will have an additional OOC role, what questions should we be asking candidates.
(01/13 13:41:52)  weeKIly Reporter: Maybe a IC role for giveing info from DRC and OOC role for give info TO DRC
(01/13 13:41:58)  Eleri: when we were helping Cyan get both IC and OOC news out about the return of live, we had to flex
(01/13 13:42:01)  Sifr: personally, whoever it is, we'd like to be told :)
(01/13 13:42:01)  Dave Mac: Well, they obviously have to be IC with the DRC, but they can be more OOC with the explorers.
(01/13 13:42:02) Hitana cannot go away from the pc for min because its very interesting!
(01/13 13:42:20)  ireenquench: Question for IC /OOC liaisons....Do you believe you are minions of Cyan.... interpret what you think Cyan wants... act on their behalf.... and this make decisions based on your interpretation on that.... ?
(01/13 13:42:23)  Leonor: Cyan didn't request Liasons. They have the means to communicate to everyone in game if they want.
(01/13 13:42:33)  Migo: if the experience is less than fun.....folks won't "play"
(01/13 13:42:38)  Hitana: yep
(01/13 13:42:49)  Butch: the question is what questions should we be asking candidates for DECL assuming a mixed IC/OOC role.
(01/13 13:42:54)  Vortmax: Exactly Migo.  It's why GrayWolf left.  He wasn't having fun anymore.
(01/13 13:43:00)  tkwiggins: @ Leonor, didn't Marie make the request for Liaisons on the DRC board back in Feb 06?
(01/13 13:43:04)  Ruby O'Degee: Hi there 
(01/13 13:43:09)  Gadren: my issues with the DRC aren't an IC thing -- i truly think that Cyan dropped the ball on this one
(01/13 13:43:22)  Thend: Again, this seems to be related to the IC/OOC/RP question.  What to ask?  How will you organize info that you present to the DRC for their better understanding of what goes on In-Cavern?
(01/13 13:43:22)  Leonor: Marie is DRC, not Cyan
(01/13 13:43:23)  tkwiggins: sadly agree w/Gad
(01/13 13:43:27)  Eleri: I think these are very important things to be defining, if the community plans on continuing elections
(01/13 13:43:35)  Mystlander: The big push for Liaisons came from The Great Tree!
(01/13 13:43:37)  Vortmax: Ask them how they'd like to work with Cyan.  What they think could be done
(01/13 13:43:41)  weeKIly Reporter: Well it was mailnt the fact theat he had that and GoG and he didn't not want to short either our
(01/13 13:43:47)  Greypiffle F: buch - I think you should work on a schedule baise - ask people if they can sign up for certain TIMES to be in cavern to talk with people.
(01/13 13:43:47)  Matthew Allen: Agreed, I don't think the problem is with the DRCLs, I think the problem is with Cyan/DRC here
(01/13 13:43:51)  Gadren: getting snubbed by the DRC for long periods of time is one thing, but when it's Cyan and the company we love is not paying attention to us... it hurts
(01/13 13:44:13)  Butch: the question is assuming DRCL are a mix of IC and OOC roles, what questions should we be asking candidates before the next election?
(01/13 13:44:16)  Leonor: I really don't understand that kind of attitude, Gadren, to be honest.
(01/13 13:44:32)  Eleri: Bluntly, Gadren is right. Very little of the stress the Liaisons were experiencing ws IC
(01/13 13:44:37)  Leonor: Cyan should not be in the game at all.
(01/13 13:44:48)  Whalyn: This may be totally out of line... but finding out how much technical knowledge a laison candidate has would be imporant to me.
(01/13 13:44:59)  Vortmax: Good question, Whalyn :D
(01/13 13:45:01)  Sifr: I suppose that because they are busy trying to help us, we feel neglected when we don't see them, and they might forget why they are doing it as well...
(01/13 13:45:03)  Butch: 5 minutes on the question of assuming a mix of IC and OOC roles what questions should we be asking candidates for DRCL.
(01/13 13:45:07)  Eleri: Take, for expample, the lack of information about the Liaisons in the ResEng Orientations.
(01/13 13:45:13) Ghaelen D'Lareh thinks the whole liaison request by the DRC was to get people to the DRC forums, and that the real problem was the lack of moderation by those same DRC members  during the election process
(01/13 13:45:14)  tkwiggins: If Cyan is understaffed to invest time in DRC RP, it's understandable given the RL requirements they're under... but they should try to write that into the story, not leave the DRCLs hanging in the wind.
(01/13 13:45:23)  Greypiffle F: canditates should be asked if they are willing to schedule time to be in the cavern for thier roles
(01/13 13:45:30)  Hitana: what is your programm? would be a good question
(01/13 13:45:42)  Sifr: personally i'm happy with Cyan and the DRC, as long as the story is compelling, and the community warm, i'll be here
(01/13 13:45:44)  Eleri: Ultimately, the decision to have that information included lay with Cyan
(01/13 13:45:54)  ireenquench: yup.... my main issues are with Cyan's design of the DRCL stuff.... they dropped a bomb and are letting it explode over and over and over, its just poor design.... I think they are pretty clueless about social dymamics if they let this run any further.... they designed it, they better take care of it.... any DRCLs should telly Cyan: sorry guys, it doesnt work.... give us structure and guidance
(01/13 13:46:01)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: are there liaisons who are not in the Cavern?
(01/13 13:46:17)  Eleri: Nope, we all take time to be down here
(01/13 13:46:23)  Hitana: right ieen
(01/13 13:46:27)  Vortmax: Grey, I like that question too :D
(01/13 13:46:29)  Hitana: ireen this is
(01/13 13:46:29)  Eleri: spontaniously, and for scheduled events
(01/13 13:46:35)  Butch: the issue on the floor is what questions should we be asking candidates for DRCL given a mix of IC and OOC roles.
(01/13 13:46:38)  Matthew Allen: I think all the DRCLs should walk of the next meeting with Cate to make a statement to the powers that be.. this game of DRCL politics is not fun
(01/13 13:46:47)  Migo: this is why I am confused about this, Cyan is not in the game??
(01/13 13:46:49)  Gadren: it feels like Cyan wants to play this IC game with us, and when we have real grievancese, they give us more DRC meetings and more IC play...we don't want more stories and puppet shows -- we want to get things fixed
(01/13 13:46:55)  Matthew Allen: *walk out of
(01/13 13:46:55)  Thend: Cyan might've assumed the role would've taken off in a creative, community-like direction, like many other Cavern activities/groups, instead of the waiting for DRC information to be doled out that it became, especially due to the messy, over-complicated election 'discussions'
(01/13 13:46:59)  Migo: Cyan is the game
(01/13 13:47:03)  tkwiggins: What about the long view tho... does everyone think that most explorers, especially new ones, understand the DRC storyline in the first place, much less the (to them) subleties of DRCL roles, elections, forums, etc.?
(01/13 13:47:03)  Hitana: lol
(01/13 13:47:05)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: well said Gadren
(01/13 13:47:17)  amonre: Migo: Cyan isn't, at least not IC... when you're playing IC, cyan doesn't exist, uru is real, the drc is real, etc
(01/13 13:47:27)  Vortmax: How about how the Liaisons would like to interact with the DRC and Cyan
(01/13 13:47:31)  amonre: but obviously, OOC, Uru is a game made by Cyan
(01/13 13:47:32)  Leonor: I think this whole "Cyan doesn't love us" thing is rather silly. I'm off.
(01/13 13:47:33)  ireenquench: yeah... new people dont undertand any of this.... tbhis puts new people off
(01/13 13:47:34)  Vortmax: Ask that.
(01/13 13:47:37)  Butch: 3 mintutes on the question of what questions should we ask candidates for DRCL in the next election, assuming IC and OOC roles.
(01/13 13:47:40)  Eleri: tk, exactly, and the Ls *could* have been a way to bridge that knowledge gap
(01/13 13:47:51)  Migo: well, then they have someone representing their story?
(01/13 13:47:58)  Dave Mac: Well, Cyan is real weather or not your IC or OOC, they just have a different role.
(01/13 13:48:02)  Sifr: Cyan does exist in the game doesn't it? they're the ones IC who published the games based on the journals?
(01/13 13:48:09)  Ghaelen D'Lareh: I think Cyan loves their fans.  The DRC (as a part of the story) don't care so much
(01/13 13:48:11)  tkwiggins: I think they still can El
(01/13 13:48:13)  Thend: Leonor, this is only an open discussion of stuff
(01/13 13:48:13)  Matthew Allen: To respond to Butch's question: "Why should be vote?"
(01/13 13:48:19)  ireenquench: if I were new and stumbled into the DRC Liaison forums.... I'd think : whackos pretending fake democracy and not even understanding its fake.... and walk out
(01/13 13:48:23)  Gadren: like the whole meeting on the 19th ... if we had been warned in advance about it all by Cyan, we could have done something to encourage more people to be in the Cavern...and when the DRC moved the meeting to another hood, they didn't tell us except for a "spread the word" message
(01/13 13:48:25)  amonre: well... yes... cyan is real, but entirely differently real ;)
(01/13 13:48:26)  Sifr: i mean, Josh is in the cavern, as a Cyanist, not a DRC member. he's ooc
(01/13 13:48:29)  Vortmax: Hey, any more ideas for questions to ask OOC Liaison candidates?
(01/13 13:48:39)  tkwiggins: (Way OOC - Rand's gotta assign some manhours to it.  :)
(01/13 13:48:46)  Butch: 2 mintues on the question of what question we should be asking, assuming a mix of IC and OOC roles, candidates for Liaison.
(01/13 13:48:46)  Lorri (I'm on the surface, be back in a minute):  
(01/13 13:49:00)  Sifr: lol we're getting off the point... aren't we?
(01/13 13:49:17)  pirschen43: That, or wer're getting *to* the point :)
(01/13 13:49:23)  Butch: The conversation is more imortant that the point, Sifr
(01/13 13:49:28)  Vortmax: Maybe who they'd like to see at OOC Town Hall meetings.  LIke I'd love to have one with Tim Larkin.
(01/13 13:49:31)  Eleri: I like to know what they think of the game, and the story
(01/13 13:49:43)  Dave Mac: I met Tim, he's awesome.
(01/13 13:49:47)  Sifr: yeah, i just thought i'd be penalised if i kept babbling on...
(01/13 13:49:47)  Butch: 1 minute on the question of questinos for IC and OOC DRCL
(01/13 13:49:55)  Greypiffle F: good one eleri
(01/13 13:50:04)  Eleri: Oh, I have asked Tim so many times! The goober doesn't think anyone wants to hear from him
(01/13 13:50:17)  Butch: TIME
(01/13 13:50:17)  Nis'ah: what they think their role should be
(01/13 13:50:20)  ireenquench: Question for candidates: "Will you tell players and explorers you work for them, while in truth you are working only for thos having to share information, this the DRC Cyan, or granted any explorer group"
(01/13 13:50:20)  Hitana: lol
(01/13 13:50:21)  Vortmax: I know :)
(01/13 13:50:28)  Thend: As a followup to Eleri's, what did Cyan intend with this whole Liaison thing they introduced?
(01/13 13:50:33)  Hitana: good one ireen!
(01/13 13:50:34)  Migo: ditto, ireen
(01/13 13:50:55)  Butch: Next question may be just a rewording of the fisrt.
(01/13 13:51:03)  Hitana: okay
(01/13 13:51:10) Vortmax starts to laugh
(01/13 13:51:15)  Hitana: lol
(01/13 13:51:36)  Butch: How can we get more Explorers invovled in the next election, as candidates, voters and anything else that an election needs?
(01/13 13:51:51)  Butch: this is more than just Advertise 
(01/13 13:51:51)  Hitana: tell them lol
(01/13 13:51:54)  Eleri: bribery?
(01/13 13:51:59)  Eleri: ;)
(01/13 13:52:02)  ireenquench: Talk about it in the Cavern.
(01/13 13:52:05)  Vortmax: Again, information spread is key.  Ireen did a great job covering the forums, but we need more spread in the Cavern
(01/13 13:52:07)  amonre: "win one month free uru!"
(01/13 13:52:07)  Sifr: tell them everything in a friendly and not too talk-down too sort of way :)
(01/13 13:52:07)  Migo: define the roles, expectations, purpose
(01/13 13:52:13)  Migo: bribery is good
(01/13 13:52:14)  Nis'ah: tell them exactly what they are voting for
(01/13 13:52:14)  Hitana: yes motuh to mouth lol
(01/13 13:52:14)  Greypiffle F: let people know that if they don't vote, they have no right to complain about the results!!!!
(01/13 13:52:15)  Matthew Allen: I'm not convinced that explorers should be involved in the next election still
(01/13 13:52:18)  Whalyn: As candidates?  Maybe show them that there's something there that needs to be done.
(01/13 13:52:21)  amonre: yeah I think that's just a rewording :P
(01/13 13:52:32)  pirschen43: when wuold the next elections be?
(01/13 13:52:36)  Vortmax: We need to define the role, explain why it's important, and let people know they have a chance to make a difference in the Cavern
(01/13 13:52:37)  weeKIly Reporter: So there is going to be another voting for DRCL?
(01/13 13:52:49)  ireenquench: try to get a team together posting on forums, but most important, repetedly tell others in the cavern, explain how you see it
(01/13 13:52:50)  Hitana: exactly vort!
(01/13 13:52:54)  Gadren: regardless of if there are new elections, or if they end up being appointed in the future...people need to know that the liaisons exist
(01/13 13:52:55)  Sifr: Vote! (or you'll be locked in Relto as political deviants) :p
(01/13 13:52:55)  Butch: the question on the floor is how do we engage more Explorers in the next Election for DRCL, as candidates, voters and organizers.
(01/13 13:52:57) Migo helping Reporter take notes
(01/13 13:52:58)  Vortmax: In theory, the next election shoudl be in April
(01/13 13:53:03)  Gadren: most people in the cavern don't know
(01/13 13:53:08)  amonre: pirschen: last one was in october, next one will be in april, but we might have early elections
(01/13 13:53:22)  Greypiffle F: Twi-lite says that we need to post information about the elections on the imagers -