HTMLised Transcript of 2007 Jan 13 Meeting

Posted January 15th, 2007 by Butch
1: Butch: Well, my clock says noon, so I'll get started.
2: Dr. August: I don't support carjacking vehicles. But if you think about it, hotwiring can be a useful or lifesaving skill.
3: amonre claps his hands
4: Kiteerah claps her hands
5: Skellington98 claps his hands
6: Butch: I would like to thank everyone for coming to this informal gathering
7: Vortmax cheers
8: Thend: So you've mentioned Doctor lol
9: Dr. August claps his hands
10: Thend claps his hands
11: Relentless claps his hands
12: Butch: So everyone knows, I am running a chatlog, and plan to post it after we are done.
13: Nis'ah claps her hands
14: ireenquench: great, I looove logs *cough*
15: Thend: lol
16: Butch: This meeting came out of a post I made on DRCsite
17: Butch: So, let's start with the introductions.
18: Butch: Try to follow my lead.
19: Butch: I'm Butch, I started just after UU opened and I am not affiliated with any group in the cavern
20: Butch: Kiteerah, please
21: Kiteerah: I'm Kiteerah I started during Prologue and I am not affiliated with any group
22: Butch: Go next. I"m just going to walk down my age list and ask eveyone to introduce
23: Butch: Dr. August
24: Dr. August: My name is Ashley August. I have been in the cavern only a few days...but it is my home now.
25: Butch: Nis'ah
26: Nis'ah: I'm Nisah and I started during Prolog and I'm not affiliated with any group or organization
27: Butch: ireenquench
28: ireenquench: I preferto be called ireen, I have been in Uruand UU since prologue, I have worked with several groups, but only speak for myself.
29: Butch: amonre
30: amonre: I'm amonre, and I run Myst Blogs, UruVote, and the DRCL elections, kind-of
31: Butch: Ward
32: tkwiggins: Shorah all
33: Butch: Ward, do you want to introduce yourself?
34: barker57: hi all
35: Ward: I'm Ward Edema. I'm the Reporter of Ward's D'ni Newsletter.
36: Butch: Relentless
37: Relentless: I'm relentless, came to the cavern about 6months ago in UU, affilitated with UEF but speak for my self
38: weeKIly Reporter: pff
39: Butch: Mingo
40: Migo: My name is Migo, I am member of the UO hood, and represent myself
41: Butch: Thend
42: Thend: I.. am Thend. Have been here and there since Prologue and I've rubbed shoulders with groups during my stay, but am not officially affiliated
43: Butch: Vortmax
44: ireenquench would like to remind everyone to step closely into the chat bubble and please all use /shout
45: Vortmax: Hey, I'm Vort. Been around since old Prologue (wht a break for some of UU). DRC Liaisons, UO 'hood member
46: Vortmax: *with
47: Butch: Skellington98
48: Skellington98: I'm Skellington98, was Greg in UU, and am only affiliated with the Up on the Roof! party hosts, but my opinon only reflects my own.
49: Butch: Whilyam
50: Professor Askew waves
51: Mystlander hugs Professor Askew
52: Whilyam: Whilyam. August 2005. No affiliation.
53: Hitana: I'm Hitana, have ever been Hitana since UU
54: Butch: barker57
55: barker57: hi all
56: Gilgameesh: shora all
57: Butch: Robert The Rebuilder
58: Robert The Rebuilder: Robert T. Rebuilder, May 2005, Guild of Age Builders, here with my restless 4-yr old son
59: Butch: Dovahn
60: MeKtonUru: :sit
61: Dovahn: I am Dovahn and I came in to the cavern during UU, but am still getting aquainted with everyone. I haven't officialy affiliated yet.
62: Butch: jimmyleg
63: jimmyleg: in prolog - currently in The Meeting Place - loose affiliations - glad to be back
64: Butch: sundog
65: sundog: My name is sundog an explorer since the closed beta , no affiliation
66: Hitana: some know me as a wirter
67: Dave Mac: Are we waiting for something to happen?
68: Butch: Mystlander
69: Skellington98: Brb
70: Butch: Professor Askew
71: Vortmax: Dave, we're doing introductions
72: Dave Mac: OK.
73: Mystlander: Sorry... LAG
74: Professor Askew: Hi, all. Professor Askew. Interim liaison...maybe lol Great Tree Hood.
75: Butch: Gadren
76: Gadren: Hi, I'm Gadren -- been around since Prologue, recent Great Tree member, and, for now at least, Liaison
77: amonre: no interim liaison, at least not yet. Sticking out tongue
78: Butch: pirschen43
79: Hitana: I'm a member of the uru obsession hood now
80: pirschen43: I'm pirschen43, was in the beta in summer 03, wasn't in prologue or UU, no affiliations
81: Hitana: and i don't know what this affiliation thing means lol
82: Butch: twiggins
83: Hitana blushes
84: Vortmax: Basically, are you connected to any groups, Hitana
85: tkwiggins: Prologue end of '03, UU Aug. '04. No affiliations.
86: Mystlander: I'm Mystlander (Mysty), in Prolouge, UU, UU:TOPTS, and now MOUL sinde November 2003. Member of The Great Tree.
87: Thend: Affiliation as in what groups you are a part of or see yourself to represent
88: Butch: Dave Mac
89: Hitana: so i have one vort?
90: Dave Mac: I'm Dave. I'm pretty new (about a month in the cavern). I'm a member of UO hood.
91: Butch: Ghaelen D'Lareh
92: Annie: How do you become affiated?
93: From Ward: Hey, Btch. What are you doing man? Are you from Cyan or Gametap? This is sutch stupid!
94: Vortmax: Annie, it's really about how you consider yourself. Smiling Do you feel like part of a group, or an independant player?
95: To Ward: I'm just an Explorer, it's an open communty meeting
96: amonre: It means that you think the DRC is right, or Yeesha is right, etc... being affiliated is just what you think
97: Ghaelen D'Lareh: I am involved with CavernCommunications Network, the Shortwave, and other audio/video programs. INdependent and cooperative
98: Hitana: i feel like a part of ---everything lol
99: Butch: Device
100: Device: Im Device, I was in Prologue and in D'mala; no affiliations
101: Butch: J'iim
102: Bear (I'm on the surface, be back in a minute):
103: Vortmax: Works for me, Hitana Laughing out loud
104: Annie: Oh, this is deeper than I thought. Does it mean belonging to a particular Bevin?
105: Hitana: k
106: Hitana: thx ireen and vort Smiling
107: Thend: Not necessaarily Annie, only who you feel you may represent
108: Butch: Rima
109: Hitana: so, why do we meet here?
110: ireenquench: or if you feel attatched to a certain grup of people
111: Annie: If I wanted to join a Bevin, how would I do it?
112: Butch: The list is scrolling faster than I can keep up with is, so anyone I missed I'll give a few mintues to introduce your selves. Sorry
113: Luke (I'm on the surface, be back in a minute):
114: Butch: I'll add that to lessions learned.
115: Professor Askew: heh
116: Butch: Now on to the next section.
117: Hitana: btw hello butch! Smiling
118: weeKIly Reporter: Hello WeeKIly Reporter here, I'm a Reporter for "The WeeKIly" KI-Newsletter
119: Ghaelen D'Lareh: wait a minute, Butch
120: Butch: I'm waiting.
121: Ruby O'Degee: I am Ruby O'Degee, and I am here for Cavern Communications Network. Lakewater Indy Productions
122: Ghaelen D'Lareh: ok, just another minute or two
123: Vortmax: Anyone else want to introduce themselves?
124: Gilgameesh: Gilgameesh, aka Gilga'meesh for the entire Prologue. Myst fan member of the Italian D'ni Explorers, now Italian Bevin. few months in UU
125: Annie: Thanks!
126: Hitana: oh, and i'm german
127: Skellington98 does a lagdance
128: Butch: The format for most of this meeting will be the facilitator (me) will post a question to the group, and then get out of the way. I believe we have about 10 minutes for open conversation on that question.
129: Butch: At about 10 minutes, I will call time and post the next question
130: Butch: There is no format for what happens in that 10 minutes.
131: Butch: I would like everyone to just talk about the topic
132: Whilyam: Do we go onstage or from here.
133: Vortmax: Whil: I'd say from here. Just for the sake of logistics.
134: Gadren: From here would be easier
135: Butch: From the floor would be best, to give everyone the most time.
136: Whilyam: Good.
137: Butch: Is everyone ready
138: Migo: yes
139: Hitana: yes
140: Butch: First section is on general MO:UL community
141: Vortmax nods his head
142: amonre nods his head
143: Gilgameesh: yes
144: Mystlander: Affirmative
145: Skellington98: ok
146: Dovahn: Darn, I have to go now.
147: Dr. August: I'll speak to you later, Dovahn.
148: Skellington98: Bye Dovahn
149: Butch: What kind of organization should the Explorers pursue inside the Cavern?
150: Hitana: bye dovahn
151: Butch: You have 10 minutes
152: Vortmax: Ah, now isn't that the $64,000 question?
153: Dovahn: Shorah, all.
154: Hitana: lol
155: Dr. August: I think it should be a union.
156: Gilgameesh: shora Dovahn
157: Migo: Pursue what gives you joy
158: Hitana: what kind of organization do you think of?
159: Dave Mac: Is there really a need for such formal organization?
160: Whilyam: Gather with who you like. Avoid those you don't.
161: Vortmax: Whatever it is, it has to be representative of everyone who wants to be involved.
162: Thend: It would seem 'Why' is an integral question here
163: Hitana: of course
164: Dr. August: So that we have a unified voice.
165: Ghaelen D'Lareh: I don't think one explorer can impose any kind of organization on another, IMO
166: Gilgameesh: i don't think a one big org can be useful, people tend to stick with friends
167: Dave Mac: I'll drink to that, Thend.
168: Whilyam: No explorer organization is needed. Nor would it be best as it appears few can decide on one thing.
169: Thend: No, Ghaelen, it would have to be communal
170: Gilgameesh: but a sort of cooperation between orgs would be natural
171: Hitana: indeed gilgameesh!
172: Butch: My view is that we have always followed an organization of trust, consensus and respect
173: Gadren: I ahve to agree with Dave Mac -- in the past, I've found that structured organizations lead to bureaucracy and things aren't as efficient -- or fun -- as if there's a more free market amorphous system set up
174: Skellington98: i agree with Whilyam
175: Dave Mac: It's just one more way to separate people. We shouldn't be doing that.
176: jimmyleg: TMG bevin's charter is without specific affiliation - i like that
177: Vortmax: The "why" in my mind is that if we have a larger, more unified voice, it'll be harder for the DRC and Cate to ignore us.
178: Dr. August: Perhaps every different opinion should have a union. Like pro-DRC, anti-DRC, pro-Yeesha...
179: Hitana: lol vort
180: Whilyam: The sad fact is that explorers cannot be made into one organization.
181: Vortmax: It would have to be open to EVERYONE though, regardless of any affiliations.
182: ireenquench: I think the explorers should organize themselves as they please ... but should not expect representation with Cyan.... sonce that is an impossible goal to handle in a fair and just manner, concerning groups or indiviuals.... OOCly, we are all equal as paying customers... everythign else is just play... and should have no consequneces in game
183: Thend: the casual manner of Uru/the explorers seems to go in an opposite direction to this proposal
184: Skellington98: and Butch on that too
185: Gadren: My experience as a Liaison has showed me that it's futile to try and have one organization to try and speak for everyone -- or to have an organization which everything thinks is supposed to speak for everyone
186: Dave Mac: A large group will just need leaders, and that will be one more derisive drama for everyone to deal with.
187: Kiteerah: No we can't be ONE organization, but that could be what the DRCL's are for, our representatives meet with them
188: Gilgameesh: i agree, Gadren
189: Ghaelen D'Lareh: I don't think any explorer has the right to impose their idea on another, either. So, why the need to attempt organization?
190: Vortmax: That's the down aide. The Community has a long-standing tradition of breaking into factions and arguing. I want to see that stop, and I'd hope this is a way to do it.
191: Vortmax: *side
192: Butch: The DRCL are a topic later in the meeting.
193: sundog: Why not bring back or re-introduce the guild system ?
194: Thend: A Hood might be possible, it's casual but can have a larger organizational property if necessary
195: Hitana: lol
196: Migo: By defaull, We are already, THE explorers
197: Gadren: OOC I tihnk that if a guild system starts, it needs to be started by Cyan/DRC
198: jimmyleg: i agree, thend
199: Ruby O'Degee: But democracy is messy Vortmax
200: Dr. August: I think that's on the DRC's checklist...but who knhows when that will get done.
201: Ghaelen D'Lareh: Guilds are by their nature exclusionary. Is that what our community is about?
202: Vortmax: We do know Cyan wants to bring back the guilds. That might be something we could start now.
203: Thend: migo, as said, we don't have ONE voice though as explorers
204: ireenquench isnt sure if we are still blurbing about Butchs first question and would like BUtch to repeat it
205: Sifr: I think that factions are inevitable, if you try to stamp them out, isn't that technically facism?
206: sundog: or common intersts ?
207: Gadren: Well, specialization has its advantages...it's what allows for civilization
208: Butch: The first question is: What kind of organization should Explorers pursue
209: Gilgameesh: from the experience in other mmo games, i think orgs are useful if related to the story, to play grouped we just need a sort of teaming, unrelated with guilds
210: sundog: and cultural growth
211: Butch: About 5 more minutes
212: Dr. August: Yes. Like-minded individuals should gather and decide what is best for them.
213: Dave Mac: I think the we are blurbing about an assumption within Butch's question.
214: Migo: If you want ONE voice...you need to define, for What
215: Thend: Yes
216: Ruby O'Degee: i have no issue with guilds, but a guild to manage guilds is not going to work
217: Ghaelen D'Lareh likes to use her OWN voice
218: Hitana: if there really has to be one, what possibilities do we have?
219: Device: Do Explorers NEED to pursue an organization though? No need to pressure people to do these things
220: Vortmax: Should we decide on a system, I like something more representative. People who are willing and able to speak for us on various things.
221: Migo: organized to represent ourselves to DRC, Cyan?
222: Gilgameesh: the people must be free to play as they feel
223: tkwiggins: I kinda doubt any general, all-inclusive explorers' organization would be stable for long. Organizations are created to achieve common goals, accomplish common tasks -- it seems that definition of such goals would need to come first, and and organization then created to achieve them.
224: Thend: One voice in the hub-bub may not be enough in certain situations Ghaelen, hence this meting
225: Vortmax: Migo, to the DRC mostly
226: pirschen43: Just keep in mind that the majority of explorers (OOC the casual players that MOUL will need to stay alive) will never have the time or interest to pursue being in an organization
227: Dave Mac: I think organizations in this sort of game really turn off new people (like me).
228: Ward: He, anyone wants a drink? He, he!
229: Whilyam: I think the Liaisons do a good enough job at being a voice with the DRC
230: Thend nods his head
231: ireenquench: I like my own voice and everybody elses own voice and i think everybody can organize themselves as they see fit and want to play... but not be "rewarded" by the game, Cyan should treat everybody equally as paying customers.
232: Ghaelen D'Lareh: Thend, I wasn't talking about using my voice for anyone else but me, but only for myself
233: Sifr: i agree with Dave, new players won't like being bossed around and made to join something
234: Vortmax: and it's important to note that nobody would be forced into this. This is just something which would be there for those who want it.
235: Migo: I agree ireen
236: jimmyleg: i agree, whily, liaisons are necessary
237: Hitana: organization is kind of spitting for me, to be honest
238: Butch: 3 more mintues on the question of What kind of organization should explorers pursue in the cavern
239: Gadren: Perhaps the best thing would be how people have already started smaller groups for serving specific needs... there's UO with their news updates, TCT with their podcasts, a D'ni artistic group, a D'ni linguists foundation...
240: ireenquench: we arent taling about the DRCLs yet are we? this is general
241: amonre: well... you are you... you are not an organisation Eye-wink
242: Hitana: lol amon
243: tkwiggins: I agree with Gad on that
244: Thend: yes, Ghaelen, but the impact individual voices versus a unified one, that's the difference
245: Whilyam: People should join whatever group they choose. Organizing as they choose. No Explorer Union or anything like that.
246: jimmyleg: but hoods have always played a large part of development
247: ireenquench: and people should be able to participate in more than one group
248: Dave Mac: I think the DRCLs are fine, but we all see how much friggin drama it has caused. Can you imagine the impact of a larger group like a union with union leaders? Oy vey!
249: Ghaelen D'Lareh: I don't quite follow you, Thend... are you saying individual voices are better? worse?
250: Migo: It grows with time, our voices gather to various interests, people form groups for that if they wish
251: Butch: 2 more mintues on the question of What kind of organization should Explorers pursue in the Cavern.
252: Thend: If there was a purpose that concerned and activated many, then folks may rally around it
253: Skellington98 wants dual hood residence
254: Vortmax: So Whil, basically just join whichever group suits you, and then work with that group to become a larger voice?
255: Whilyam: We need to end the Liaison drama..
256: Nalates: Unless there is some unifying problem I doubt we will cooperate.
257: Dr. August: According to Cate, DRC affiliate, DRCLs maybe be elminiated...
258: Dave Mac: Amen, Whil.
259: Hitana: they organize themselves in their litte groups, thats all we need
260: Gadren: let's talk about the liaisons later, ok?
261: ireenquench: we can never be unified, because ou interests and views are different
262: Ward: -wave
263: Thend: Ghalen, depends on the situation, that's all
264: Butch: DRCL are a later topic
265: Ward waves
266: Whilyam: Of course. They tie into organization however
267: Skellington98: how muuch time left on this topic?
268: Ghaelen D'Lareh: oh, I see. I agree with that
269: Dr. August: But we have SOME common interests.
270: Sifr: the problem is we're assuming without an organisation we're in anarchy... are we at the moment?
271: Butch: 1 minute on the question of what kind of organization should Exploers pursue in the Cavern
272: Dr. August: We're in dictatorship right now.
273: Hitana: okay i think butch wants an answeer on this...
274: Gilgameesh: this will transform the game in a 'elite only' game.....
275: Hitana: lol
276: Dave Mac: I still haven't heard a convincing answer to the WHY question.
277: Ghaelen D'Lareh: How so, Dr. August?
278: ireenquench: wanting to be here, thats about our only common interest abd opinion
279: Whilyam: My answer: No official organization. Let people do what they want.
280: Thend: So, commonality, then, may be the thing, the issue, not making arbitrary alliances
281: Butch: TIME
282: Kiteerah: I think representatives from each group should meet together occassionally to discuss various concerns
283: Butch: The first question is closed.
284: Sifr takes his hand off the buzzer... Smiling
285: Dr. August: The DRC, Ghaelen. They control us.
286: Hitana shakes her head
287: Whilyam: Next.
288: Ruby O'Degee: what are the concerns you speak of?
289: Migo: The answer is ....there is no SHOULD....there is what each will do
290: Vortmax: Clean cup, clean cup! Move down, move down!
291: tkwiggins: We have commen interests for sure... but I don't think the majority of explorers feel there is a common problem. At least enough so to warrant cavern-wide orgs such as an explorers' union.
292: Nalates: Migo, good point!
293: Gadren: TIME means TIME, everyone
294: ireenquench would like to remind everyonne that this is an OOC meeting, becuase that is important to keep in mind
295: Gilgameesh: if any player will able to create a org and play with it, the community will automatically balance them.... no way to pre constitute orgs
296: Kiteerah: Whatever is the concern of the time
297: Whilyam: In short SHUT UP!
298: Migo: DRC and representation is a different issue
299: Ghaelen D'Lareh: hey, Whilyam.....
300: Vortmax: Butch: Question 2?
301: Butch: The second question is Should we be organized around HOODS or non-Hood organizations as the basis of a community wide organization, should one exist?
302: Migo: oops
303: Butch: You have 10 minutes.
304: Vortmax: In short, both
305: Hitana: puh
306: Migo: yes
307: jimmyleg: both
308: Dr. August: Both. There should be Guilds/groups and hoods, but we should be able to join more than one.
309: Hitana: yes both
310: Skellington98: both
311: Vortmax: Again, it's the "how"
312: Kiteerah: Both
313: Hitana: i agree dr. august!
314: tkwiggins: Both
315: Whilyam: Both. And there can be no community-wide organization, because we all think differen on some things.
316: Dr. August cheers
317: Gilgameesh: free choice for, i stay with my point: pleople must be free to play as they feel
318: Jaytee: both
319: Gadren: I think that saying "should" here isn't good because that's everyone's decision...are there any advantages or disadvantages to either?
320: Thend: I doubt some would be so willing to give up their Hood membership,/allegiance, though using a seperate avvie for this purpose may be the answe
321: Vortmax: Nothing is stopping you from being involved in multiple groups, either.
322: Sifr: definitely organised around hoods, with some main connection to who's running the city...
323: Ghaelen D'Lareh thinks that if there is not enough convincing evidence for organization at all, the way to organize is a mute point
324: Hitana: btw is anyone recording this?
325: Whilyam: Yes
326: Butch is
327: Skellington98: butch is
328: Hitana: good
329: Hitana thanks you
330: ireenquench: I think we should not be organized as a community-wide organization, because that task is impossible and will only lead to unfair representation, thus the question of hood representation is moot (because it is unfair)
331: Dave Mac: Guilds=WoW=pain and suffering, and pwning and n00bs, none of which have a place in Uru.
332: Butch: So the assumption to the question is flawed, that it should be one wya or the other.
333: Hitana: hmm
334: Ghaelen D'Lareh agrees with Dave Mac
335: Migo: correct, Butch
336: Gilgameesh: there is not only WoW around and all depends by content of game
337: Whilyam: Correct, no organization/representation. However, people should be able to gather in hood or non-hood
338: Thend: Guiilds in WOW are not necessairly applicable to Guilds in Uru
339: Dr. August: OOC: URU is non-competitive, however.
340: Dave Mac: I was kind of making a joke with the WoW thing.
341: Whilyam: If this question is moot, shall we moveo nto the next one?
342: Gilgameesh: agree, thend. don't compare wow with uru Smiling
343: Butch: 5 minutes on the question of hoods or non-hoods as the basis for organization.
344: Skellington98: OOC: but we have made t a place for fun copetition
345: Migo: Do what you will, harm none
346: Whilyam: Butch?
347: Skellington98: OOC: Dni olympics
348: Butch: Yes, Whilyam.
349: Hitana: so what were the two possibilities again?
350: Skellington98: ooc: A- Zandi Shirt races
351: Sifr: if we have it like the Commonwealth you get every hood who asks to be represented having an equal say... (as opposed to a UN or EU sort of system)
352: Dave Mac: Hood and non-hood.
353: Whilyam: If this question is moot, why not move onto the next one?
354: Hitana: thanks dave
355: Thend: Whatever works, IMO, a purpose defines the medium. And agree that affiliation should not have to be exclusive
356: Butch: if the question is flawed, then attack the question
357: Ghaelen D'Lareh: agreed re: moving on
358: Whilyam shrugs
359: Whilyam decapitates the question
360: Butch starts to laugh
361: Migo: we are family...
362: tkwiggins: lol
363: Dr. August: How many questions are there?
364: Ghaelen D'Lareh: lol
365: Hitana: lol
366: Butch: 10
367: Dave Mac: I think we may be considering the organizations a bit too formally.
368: Thend: So, loose rather than some stringiant format
369: ireenquench: I am also strongly opposed to official guilds at this point in time, should that mean that players that may be interested in a certain topic a guild is for are deprived from certain priviledges a guild may have... and should the guild be led by players who would be allowed to make decisions over others... I want to pusure my interests as i see fit, I want to be able to join several groups or not, I dont want anyone making decisions for me
370: Thend: gah!
371: Whilyam: TEXT!
372: Butch: If that is what we think the Explorers should purse, rather than what DRC/Cyan forced on us, yes, loose organization.
373: Skellington98: huh?
374: Hitana: yes thats right ireen
375: sundog: Am I correct that what we are discussing is how to encourage explorer to explorer interaction or is the status quo all right (hoods), what are the other possiblities
376: jimmyleg: the ki overhead might play a part in multiple hoods?
377: Migo: Well, heck, you know, you want to form a stringent society, group...I cannot stop you, and may not join you
378: ireenquench: Cyan as the game designers are the only authority i want to accept, i don not even accept the DRC as the full authority
379: Butch: That's the next question sundog
380: Dave Mac: What the heck have DRC/Cyan forced on us?
381: Thend: sundog, organization possibilities
382: Dave Mac: We're not oppressed, we're playing a dang game!
383: Whilyam: Some would say, Liaisons.
384: Dr. August cheers
385: Hitana: lol
386: Dr. August: Thank you Ireen.
387: sundog: thnks Smiling
388: Migo: ireen, agreed
389: Skellington98: aw. i gotta go
390: Gilgameesh: cyan/gametap have different issue on this: legal questions and other eula related.
391: Whilyam: However explorers asked for those first
392: Skellington98: shorah 'tee all
393: Hitana: bye skellington
394: ireenquench: since there is also the option to "play alone" i see no way how these players could be fairly represented in any hood based or guld based representation
395: Gilgameesh: the point of view is different
396: Butch: Do we want to close this question early? Many of us seem to agree that it is flawed.
397: Ghaelen D'Lareh: OOC: isn't the DRC imposition part of the overall story? Therefore necessary to it in ways we "IC" don't yet understand??
398: Ruby O'Degee: Yes, I have the same question. What does the liaison do that affects me an an explorer?
399: Vortmax: How much time is left?
400: Whilyam cuts off the questions punctuation marks
401: Thend: Who decides for us, as a group, as ireen said, is a good point, and troublesome
402: Whilyam: I'm still attacking it
403: Hitana: indeed!
404: Butch: 2 mintues on the question of hoods v. non-hoods as the basis of organziation
405: Valdez: shorah evreyone
406: ireenquench: if some form of representation will be forced upon us.... NOT hood based
407: Vortmax: Yes, I think that's flawed. It can't be one or the other. It would leave too many people out.
408: Sifr: exactly, we have the right to be antisocial if we choose...
409: Hitana: yes
410: Migo: You decide, yourself, actually, the powers that be...do something you don't like...vote with your feet, pocket book,
411: Hitana: lol sifr
412: Dave Mac: I think this question has, at its core, the same flawed presumption of the first one. Do we really need a formal organizational structure?
413: Hitana: YOU ARE YOU, you know what i mean Eye-wink
414: Thend: If things are designed like this, though Butch is the moderator, things can possibly proceed peacefully for all, with each doing their own paerticular bit afterwards
415: Butch: TIME
416: Gilgameesh: we don't need
417: Whilyam: The rest ofthe questions in this section also deal with the community-wide org idea and are also flawed.
418: Butch: The question is closed.
419: ireenquench: indeed, we dont need all this, thats my point, its more hurtfull than helpfull
420: Hitana: yes
421: Hitana: next question, please!
422: Ghaelen D'Lareh nods
423: Vortmax: Heh, call me a dreamer, but I think it could be very useful.
424: Migo: We got anything positive to work on?
425: Ghaelen D'Lareh nods to Ireen's statement
426: Dave Mac: Positive? This is Uru, we don't do positive.
427: Ghaelen D'Lareh: this isn't positive?
428: Vortmax laughs
429: Butch: Next question, Under any organizaqtion, including none, how do we represent and balance the contribution of large and small groups alike?
430: yogayoda laughs
431: Gadren: Until we have concrete needs for people to step up and solve, abstract discussions about organization can't really do much good
432: Whilyam: Positive sucks! It hides logs from us and does evil things!
433: Valdez: only negetive?
434: ireenquench: NONE NONE NONE lol
435: Dr. August: Incredible question!
436: Ghaelen D'Lareh: what?
437: Sifr takes a moment to get his brain around the question and stop going blanked...
438: Valdez: ok, anyone start a log on this?
439: Thend: ireen, by your statement on this possible organizing, you appear to make a blanket condemnation of froming into any groups at all, no matter the intent
440: Hitana thinks she didn't understand that question
441: Butch: Rewording: How do we keep larger groups from walking over smaller ones?
442: Gilgameesh: this is automatically solved by each group, no need to have redetermined rules
443: Vortmax: Again, and interesting question. We have to find a way to involve all of those who want it, regardless of affiliation
444: Migo: please repeat the question?, it has scrolled out
445: Gadren: Through the free market -- I don't think we need a strict system of giving people voices... but those that are able to do more and help people will end up having a say in things, on their own
446: Whilyam: None. People must do this themselves. Ask a Liaison their concern and have it weeded out by popular opinion.
447: Ambientkatz shakes his head
448: Gilgameesh: i already suggested: teaming
449: Butch: The question is: How do we balance and represent the contribution of all groups large and small.
450: Kiteerah: By each group having an equal voice
451: Valdez: i will start a log
452: Gilgameesh: whaqt we need is the chat working, not necessarily the same instance
453: Dave Mac: Representation to whom?
454: jimmyleg: contributions are without specific award. adventure, discovery, and noteriety are the rewards maybe
455: Vortmax: Valdez, Butch is logging
456: Whilyam: People cannot be included if they don't speak up. This job goes to the people.
457: Hitana: ans why?
458: pirschen43: Contribution towards what
459: Hitana: and
460: Valdez: ah
461: weeKIly Reporter: Set up a democracy? Sticking out tongue
462: Butch: Contribution to the comunity
463: ireenquench: I love groups, I love organizing myself... we all can do that in our natural flow, it should not be officially forced... it is in our nature to form teams about things.... let it happen without it being tied to some kind of "representation"
464: Thend: If we come to a concensus, then have the freedom to decide whether our particular specialities can carry it out, or if we want to at all, then we could proceed, as a 'group'
465: Dave Mac: I can't think of a way one group could possibly affect another.
466: Hitana: i agree with ireen
467: yogayoda: a galactic republic
468: Whilyam: Talk to Liaisons, talk to other explorers to get your idea/faction/whatever recognised more
469: Vortmax: That's one thought. Perhaps a bicameral legislature, based on both representation for groups and representation based on population.
470: Sifr: i suppose what we could do is have the liasons have a hood bulletin board on the imager, you have an issue, give it to them, they put it on the imager, then every week or so discuss it to the DRC?
471: Ghaelen D'Lareh: Cavern life is much like real life.....not all voices are heard everyday. Unfortunate, but realistic.
472: pirschen43: In terms of contributing to just a feeling of "community" each group, big and small, is its own communicty and can interact with other groups/individuals as they please
473: Vortmax: Not "legislature", but you know what I mean.
474: Gadren: O_o *winces at the idea of legislature*
475: Gadren: Sticking out tongue
476: Gilgameesh: agree, ireen. it will be automatic. any group freely organize themselves
477: Whilyam: We don't want a legislature
478: Butch: 5 minutes of the question of how do we represent and balance the contribution of all groups large and small in the cavern
479: Thend: Individuals should not be handicapped because they do not wish to be a part of any official group
480: pirschen43: OOC they don't contribute to anything specific in the game, just a community feeling
481: Hitana: yes thend!
482: Ruby O'Degee: we can't balance contribution. It doesn't work that way. Explorers contribute when they can and will. If they don't get criticized too much, and therein lies some problems
483: Vortmax: Exactly, Thend.
484: Gadren: Here's my rule of thumb: don't think of these groups as if they're nations or states or provinces or parties...think of them as interest groups
485: Hitana: indeed!
486: Whilyam: I'd say leave this up to explorers. Let them voice their opinions their own way. See what I did withthe Liaison issue just by asking a REs Eng. Got Cate to talk to Vort next day.
487: Vortmax: The independants must also have representation
488: Ghaelen D'Lareh: but all groups, if they have a hood, could easily be represented by having the name of their hood on the public list if they wanted it to be seen
489: jimmyleg: i agree, gadren
490: Ghaelen D'Lareh: and Cyan has to fix that
491: Migo: Look, if Butch has specifically said, this is not about DRC and representations, then ....the issue, becoming muddied
492: Butch: The question is how to repersent and balance the contribution of all groups in the cavern, large and small.
493: Valdez: man, you guys are turning a computer game into a country!
494: ireenquench: we have to trust the natural flow of enough of us being capable of organizing us among ourselves... it is possible... i did it during UU the entire time... but it has nothing to do with representation or rewards... its just what people do anyway, in a simple way.... and should they decide to remain solitary thats fine too.
495: Ruby O'Degee: we are all indepeendants aren't we?
496: Gilgameesh: in any game there are groups but any player can group with others just for the actual task, so no need any special rule. just freedom
497: Thend: Groups can and do proceed freely, this is no different, if there is a REASON for it, a commonality that we all share and decide for ourselves to promote, whatever form that takes
498: Dave Mac: So now we're going to have groups of explorers each connected through a big representational group, which is then responsible to no one and has no authority and creates an unecessary buracracy and confuses newcomers? Great idea!
499: Nis'ah: One way would be to put their contributions in an easily accesable place for everyone
500: Gadren starts to laugh
501: Thend nods his head
502: Ghaelen D'Lareh grins at Dave Mac
503: weeKIly Reporter fans himself because this is getting heated
504: Butch: 3 mintues on the question of how to represent and blanace the contribution of all groups in the cavern, large and small
505: Ruby O'Degee: Anyone can plan an event or like and advertise it at Moul
506: Gilgameesh: this is really complicated and unnecessary. the community will evolve automatucally during gameplay just don't force anything
507: Dave Mac: Lets set up our own government. Personally I'd prefer a unicameral legislature, but that's not a deal-breaker.
508: Hitana: lol
509: Ambientkatz shakes his head
510: ireenquench: Doing something in a group is simple... get together , organize something do it.... if you dont like what people in your grpup do either work on it with them or leave the group
511: Whilyam: No.
512: sundog: I think alot of this starts with communications and clarity , such as the CNN, people feel included if they know whats going on
513: Whilyam: No government
514: Valdez: Despotisum
515: Thend: Politics = NOT the answer
516: Dave Mac: AMEN, ireen.
517: Sifr: hehe, we're all independant though, would we be able to get everyone into a group?... good god, are we going to have a civil war and become browncoats? *has his on order*
518: Gadren: I wasn't shouting before so I don't know if everyone got what I said...I just think that groups are interest groups and not nations or states...no one thinks that we need to set up an organization to represent the ACLU or Christian Coalition or all those interest groups
519: Nalates: I doubt contributions can be balanced. If they are worthwhile to the comunity they will be used and apprecaited. Otherwise the community will ignore them.
520: weeKIly Reporter: Heh Hence my KI-newsletter Sticking out tongue
521: Thend: the question here is more specific, I just noticed
522: Ruby O'Degee: Or an autocracy, is always nice. Anyone here want to be king. Vort ? are you still available?
523: Butch: 2 mintues on the question of how to represent and balance the contribution of groups large and small.
524: Valdez: me
525: Valdez: me
526: Valdez: me
527: sundog: and the Ki Letter Smiling
528: yogayoda: a capital building!
529: Dr. August: This needs to be more organized.
530: Sifr: i say, Commonwealth. everyone who asks for a say, gets a say
531: Thend: Balance it where, Butch?
532: Dave Mac: You know, a facist dictatorship would be easiest. I deem myself supreme ruler of all D'ni.
533: Ghaelen D'Lareh roars with laughter
534: Valdez: King valdez
535: Whilyam: We do need some leadership to be the final word. I think that should be Cyan.
536: Butch: How do we keep larger groups from rolling over the smaller ones?
537: ireenquench: I just want to add one more thing.... the language barrier.... what to non-english speakers do? if so much of this will be regulated and rewarded, they will be excluded even further than they are now
538: Hitana: exactly
539: Vortmax: Too late you two. I'm already Emperor. Laughing out loud
540: Nalates: The Cartographers enforced policy by using their own web site. That did not stop others from making their maps and only controlled the GoC's maps.
541: Ghaelen D'Lareh: yes, and we need more people in control
542: Ruby O'Degee: Yes, facisim work too. Very organized it is
543: jimmyleg: that is cyan
544: Ruby O'Degee: Oh sorry about the demotion vort
545: Butch: TiME
546: Dave Mac: We need NO ONE in control. Thats's the point.
547: Whilyam: *BUZZ*
548: Thend: Yes, but in what context, Butch? We already have groups working seperatelky and in harmony here
549: Ghaelen D'Lareh: right, Dave
550: Dave Mac: Thanks, Ghaelen.
551: Gadren: Right Nalates... groups will end up succeeding based on how well they give their services
552: Sifr really isn't into being a king, can he be duke and just control the stairs or the alley?
553: Valdez: ha ha Vort
554: tkwiggins: I think the same impulse that leads to the creation of interest groups will work to balance them. Those groups that serve a purpose for enough people will remain, others will die of their own accord.
555: amonre: sorry, I keep having to run back and forth from here >_<
556: Ghaelen D'Lareh: lol
557: Gadren: UO's Cavern Today maybe be larger, but it's good to see a KI newsletter
558: Hitana: the larger groups have to be nice with the smaller ones
559: sundog: true
560: Ambientkatz nods his head
561: weeKIly Reporter: Thank Gadren Smiling
562: Gadren: it's all about finding one's niche...UO isn't doing anything in the actual Cavern
563: Butch: Last question in this section. How do we include unaligned and new Explorers who are willing to participate in community-wide evetns?
564: Dr. August: TCT doesn't report on user storylines, either.
565: Butch: 10 mintues on the question.
566: Dr. August: (OOC)
567: Sifr: we let them?
568: amonre likes MYSTlore's news section Eye-wink
569: Whilyam: Yeah, this question seems to answer itself for me.
570: Dave Mac: I'm an unaligned newcomer, and I found my way to this meeting.
571: Hitana: yes
572: Nalates: One of the best ways I've seen to do this is the Hood Viewrs, like those in this Hood.
573: Dave Mac: No one kept me out.
574: sundog: well again the hood system is important - this hood the begginers for instance
575: Sifr: if they want in, who are we to tell them to naff off?
576: yogayoda: im quite new also
577: Hitana: if they like, the ca ncome
578: Gadren: Well, how were people without group affiliation handled during the D'olympics?
579: Ghaelen D'Lareh: but CCN does, Dr. August
580: Butch: Then expand on the question, HOW to we get people invovled.
581: Hitana: can come
582: Thend: In-Cavern, as in in the Cavern, not the forums, communication. Word-of-mouth so that evryone feels involved and that there's an actual community thing going on here
583: pirschen43: An in-game place to survey the existence of various "groups" would be great (other than just a list of public hoods)
584: tkwiggins: More ways to announce things in-game would help include more explorers... lots of whom don't frequent the forums.
585: Whilyam: Again, we let them.
586: Gadren: GoG is a good idea, we need more people welcoming and helping people
587: yogayoda: an announcement board
588: Sifr: are GoG that active?
589: Whilyam: If you're talking about events in the cavern, I think the DRC idea of posting in cavern and letting it seep into the forums is best.
590: Hitana: with adverds on the imager Smiling
591: sundog: in game
592: tkwiggins: Announcement boards, reader screens.
593: Vortmax: Basically give them a voice. Announce far and wide about things going on, and let them speak up with their concerns. And then actually LISTEN and CONSIDER those concerns.
594: Gadren: I think on urulive.com there's an event calendar people can add events to
595: tkwiggins: KI messages
596: Nalates: Who controls the announcement board?
597: Dave Mac: I think we should get a 30 second spot in the super bowl.
598: Thend: Announcement boards In-Cavern would be uber
599: weeKIly Reporter: Yes thats why I started the newsletter to inform those who are not in the cavern at all times to keep up with whats new
600: amonre: The GoG isn't as visible as I think it should be
601: Butch: The question is how do we include unaligned or new Exploerrs willing to participate in community-wide events
602: Thend: lol Dave
603: Sifr: they seemed to be a bit... erm... distant when i dropped into see them the other day
604: Ruby O'Degee: yes, gadren there is
605: Hitana: announcement boards!
606: ireenquench: we should just keep on telling newcomers what's happening... tell them about the stuff we do...spend time in the cavern adn point them to our sites... if they like it they can join, if they dont like it they can start their own stuff
607: Hitana: exactly
608: Kiteerah: I have to go, have a meeting
609: Ambientkatz nods his head
610: amonre: bye kitee
611: Nalates: Horay Ireen!!!
612: Ghaelen D'Lareh: agreed, Ireen, and besides, that's part of the way the story could be told
613: Gilgameesh: this is a Cyan task not our...
614: Ruby O'Degee: yes, keep directing them to the event page at MOUL
615: Butch: The q